Talk:Gaza Strip
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Blockade dispute
[edit]This recent edit dispute should be discussed.
I personally favour the version reading "The current land, sea, and air blockade [...]"
- IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 09:44, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- We should say "The current land, sea, and air blockade [...]" or "Israel's land, sea, and air blockade [...]"
- The blockade is an Israeli effort which is supported by Egypt. RS typically refer to it as an "Israeli blockade" or just "blockade of the Gaza Strip". See for example this FA article for a typical description of Egypt's role
"The Egyptian government, after all, has been party to the 16-year-long Israeli blockade of Gaza, enforcing tight controls on what comes in and out of the enclave through the border crossing at Rafah."
(emphasis mine) - For the movement of people, Israel controls the population registry--without Israeli approval, people in Gaza cannot leave, even through Rafah. For the movement of goods, Gaza has historically traded primarily with Israel and the West Bank (through Israel), Israel's restrictions are much more relevant. This is aside from the fact that Egypt enforces tight restrictions on Rafah border crossing, while Israel enforces tight restrictions on land, air and sea entry. See this quote from Gisha's report "Rafah: Who controls the keys?":
control of Rafah Crossing must be seen in the context of Israel's control of all the other crossing points of the Gaza Strip - land, air and sea - which make Gaza a "land-locked" territory, dependent on Rafah Crossing for contact with the outside world. That control has significant implications for Israel's responsibility for Rafah Crossing. Gisha - Legal Center for Ereedom of Movement (Gisha) and Physicians for Human Rights-Israel (PHR-Israel) take the position that Israel continues to constitute an occupying power in the Gaza Strip, because it controls significant aspects of life in Gaza, including its borders, the Palestinian population registry, the tax system and the funding of public services; therefore, we ascribe to it increased responsibility for the freedom of movement of the residents of the Gaza Strip.
- Also, see this quote (cited in Roy 2016) from an Egyptian official on the status of Rafah:
DMH223344 (talk) 15:39, 27 March 2024 (UTC)The Rafah crossing is unlikely to be opened for goods anytime soon. The consensus of the security establishment and diplomat- ic circles is that Israel desperately wants Egypt to take respon- sibility for a Strip that is far away from Cairo’s central author- ity, packed with armed militants, and suffers from a persistent humanitarian crisis. Once Egypt opens the Rafah crossing for goods, Israel is likely to permanently shut down the Karam Abu Salem [Kerem Shalom] crossing, when the next crisis erupts, effectively turning Gaza into Egypt’s burden to bear [and deep- ening the separation with the West Bank]. The tunnels provide Gaza with items banned by the Israeli authorities at Karam Abu Salam, such as construction materials and weapons, but the bulk of Gaza’s daily needs actually come from the Israeli crossing. Should it be shut down, Egypt, through the Rafah Crossing, would be entirely in charge of supplying Gaza with virtually everything itneeds.
- Gisha also describes Egypt's military cooperation with Israel as a mechanism through which Israel influences control over Rafah. This is no surprise, as the current Egyptian regime is aligned with the US and Israel. DMH223344 (talk) 16:37, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- There are plenty of sources that say that both Israel and Egypt have been blockading Gaza, both scholarly ones (David Faris, Dissent and Revolution in a Digital Age (2013), p. 110) and newspapers ([1]).
- Your own quote from Roy 2016 confirms that Egypt has its own goals (not having to deal with Gaza) and enforces a policy which is consistent to it (enforcign a blockade while tolerating some smuggling). Alaexis¿question? 22:28, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
- Of course egypt has its own goals, that's besides the point here. Egypt's blockade plays a relatively minor role. Insisting that the Egyptian blockade must be mentioned every time we describe the Israeli blockade, misses the relative importance of the two. In your edit summary, you suggest that we remove these details entirely from the lead or keep the phrasing which incorrectly attributes air and sea blockade to Egypt. I disagree with both suggestions on the basis that the Israeli blockade is much more important than the Egyptian blockade.
- > There are plenty of sources that say that both Israel and Egypt have been blockading Gaza,
- Of course, Egypt does indeed support the blockade effort. DMH223344 (talk) 00:12, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- What makes you think that the Israeli blockade is so much more important that the Egyptian one should not be mentioned at all?
- The sources I provided treat Egypt and Israel similarly (
Held in place by Israel and Egypt, the blockade restricts imports to the region and prevents most people from leaving
). Alaexis¿question? 07:15, 28 March 2024 (UTC)- Did I say it shouldn't be mentioned? I said the current phrasing suggests to users that Egypt is involved in the air a sea blockade (which it isnt). DMH223344 (talk) 15:16, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- I would support the edit by Alaexis. The blockade is very important because it creates the conditions for mass death of Palestinians, i.e. the civilians can not escape the area of active warfare and potential hunger, this can regarded as a war crime. And the role of Egypt is critically important. Israel is a country-combatant that is not supposed to transfer people from the other side to its territory (consider Russia that takes Ukrainians to its territory as such example). On the other hand, Egypt could easily allow the free passage of civilians from the war zone, voluntarily of course. But it does not. That's significant. My very best wishes (talk) 03:13, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- None of your points here are relevant to the edit. DMH223344 (talk) 03:45, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- I explained why including Egypt (as Alaexis did) is important. My very best wishes (talk) 03:59, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- Did I disagree that it's important? DMH223344 (talk) 04:33, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- The Israeli blockade is a major part of why the international community regards Gaza as occupied, while no-one at all regards Egypt as an occupying power, as noted by HRW "In 2022, Human Rights Watch issued a report on the situation in the Gaza Strip, which it called an "open-air prison" due to the blockade and held Israel responsible as the occupying power, and to a lesser degree Egypt, which has restricted movement of Palestinians through its border." This is the most accurate portrayal of the situation. Selfstudier (talk) 15:27, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- And I think the edit in question does portray it this way. I think we all agree that Egypt is important. There would be no blockade if it allowed free movement of Palestinians through its border. My very best wishes (talk) 16:38, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- No, Israel would still be blockading Gaza's coast and restricting the usage of its territorial waters and airspace. nableezy - 16:53, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- And I think the edit in question does portray it this way. I think we all agree that Egypt is important. There would be no blockade if it allowed free movement of Palestinians through its border. My very best wishes (talk) 16:38, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- The Israeli blockade is a major part of why the international community regards Gaza as occupied, while no-one at all regards Egypt as an occupying power, as noted by HRW "In 2022, Human Rights Watch issued a report on the situation in the Gaza Strip, which it called an "open-air prison" due to the blockade and held Israel responsible as the occupying power, and to a lesser degree Egypt, which has restricted movement of Palestinians through its border." This is the most accurate portrayal of the situation. Selfstudier (talk) 15:27, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- Did I disagree that it's important? DMH223344 (talk) 04:33, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- I explained why including Egypt (as Alaexis did) is important. My very best wishes (talk) 03:59, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- Also the source cited doesnt support it is a blockade by Egypt and Israel at all, it rather says it is just Israeli. And many more sources say Israeli blockade that is supported by Israel. I removed the contested part as unsupported by the source cited. nableezy - 16:55, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- The lead does currently say: The blockade became indefinite after the 2007 Hamas takeover, supported by Egypt through restrictions on its land border with Gaza., and it is supported by [2]. Moreover, another ref (a recent HRW report) [3] does say: “Israel, with Egypt’s help, has turned Gaza into an open-air prison,” said Omar Shakir, Israel and Palestine director at Human Rights Watch.. My very best wishes (talk) 17:37, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- Yes and I didn’t remove that. nableezy - 17:51, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- I think your last edit was fine, given that the phrase The blockade became indefinite ... is already there. This is something so minor I am surprised we are having such discussion. My very best wishes (talk) 02:16, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
- Yes and I didn’t remove that. nableezy - 17:51, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
- The lead does currently say: The blockade became indefinite after the 2007 Hamas takeover, supported by Egypt through restrictions on its land border with Gaza., and it is supported by [2]. Moreover, another ref (a recent HRW report) [3] does say: “Israel, with Egypt’s help, has turned Gaza into an open-air prison,” said Omar Shakir, Israel and Palestine director at Human Rights Watch.. My very best wishes (talk) 17:37, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request
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In the intro, next to polity please add in West Asia. 2600:100C:A219:7127:1469:5428:B808:466 (talk) 11:04, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Shadow311 (talk) 13:56, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
Introductory Paragraph
[edit]The introductory paragraph should include a statement about the population density in Gaza such as "The region has a considerably larger population density than the rest of Palestine." Calling the region "small" is a tad misleading without this clarification. 2600:1700:AC00:A390:4CA8:F6CC:54C9:372C (talk) 01:42, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- dont use undefined terms like small. Use actual figures and direct comparsons and let the reader decide if it is small. 2604:3D09:1583:7700:34D3:7E7:A71:757F (talk) 14:39, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 May 2024
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The number killed on October 7 2023 has been revised to 1,163, including 767 civilians. Source: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/opinion/article/2024/02/04/israel-s-iraqi-moment_6492786_23.html Sustnabili Thuy (talk) 08:24, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. thetechie@enwiki: ~/talk/ $ 03:05, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
Updates
[edit]Article has become outdated, as there is minimum mention of how the ongoing Israeli invasion ravaged the strip. Needs addressing. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:31, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
Outdated count of UN member states that have recognized Palestine.
[edit]The current page says only 138 member states of the UN as well as the Holy See have recognized Palestine but as of June 12, 2024, that number is now 144 according to the Wikipedia article it links to. I cannot edit it myself so I'm making this post. Atemp624 (talk) 11:05, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
- Done. Selfstudier (talk) 11:08, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
"Gaza death camp" listed at Redirects for discussion
[edit]
The redirect Gaza death camp has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 June 15 § Gaza death camp until a consensus is reached. Anonymous 19:42, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
Population size in infobox
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The current population size estimate doesn't make sense.
It says 2,375,259 for year 2022, and the reference is an Arabic article in a Chinese news site quoting Hamas.
There are a few more reliable sources, one of which should be used instead:
- PCBS, in this document, says 2.257M at the end of 2023, which is -100K, a year later.
(Another document from the same source says 2.23M for mid-2023.)
- cia.gov's estimate is 2.14M for 2024, so seemingly more recent.
The same source is used in Demographics of the State of Palestine.
- It seems the UN estimate is somewhere in between, based on List of countries by population (United Nations), which shows a total of 5.37M for Gaza + West Bank in mid-2023, compared to PCBS's 5.548M at end-of-2023.
galenIgh 22:50, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Done Using cia source. GrayStorm(Complaints Dept.|My Contribs.) 23:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks. Nice touch on updating the density too.
- By the way, that relates to another uncertain piece of data that might need updating: the area. But on a cursory search I don't see a conclusion.
- The article currently says 365 km² but the two references don't support it:
- Ref 1, the PDF article, doesn't seem to say it at all (searched, haven't read the whole thing).
- Ref 2, cia.gov, actually contradicts it and says 360 km².
- Britannica says 140 mile² / 363 km².
- galenIgh 21:40, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
ICJ ruling
[edit]ICJ ruling has declared the Gaza Strip to be occupied regardless of the 2005 "disengagement", elaborating that occupation is not about the existence of military forces but the presence of an alternative authority in the territory in question. This should be reflected in this article. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:24, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
Protests
[edit]In 2019, hundreds of Gazans took to the streets to demand a better life in what became known as the "we want to live" protests. Hamas security forces brutally suppressed the marches, beat the demonstrators and arrested over a thousand of them. . To disperse the crowds of demonstrators they opened fire at the crowd and beat them with clubs.
Protests against Hamas once again took to the streets of Gaza in the summer of 2023 demanding an improvement in the difficult living conditions under the same slogan, "We want to live". They were also brutally suppressed https://www.zman.co.il/508008/ 2.55.51.33 (talk) 20:54, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
Incorrect Blockade Text
[edit]This text in the article is misleading to the point of being factually incorrect:
In 2005, Israel unilaterally withdrew its military forces from Gaza, dismantled its settlements, and implemented a temporary blockade of Gaza. The blockade became indefinite after the 2007 Hamas takeover.
At a minimum, the portion “and implemented a temporary blockade of Gaza” should be removed. The blockade in place today was implemented in June 2007 after the unilateral withdrawal of Israel from Gaza. While there was some minor restriction of movement 2005-07, blockade is probably not the correct term. The restrictions were more akin to border controls than a blockade and were nothing like the blockade that began in 2007, with extensive restrictions on the movement of good and people. Also the source cited is an opinion piece, not a legitimate source for historical information. Please consider these two sources to replace source 19, which contain only facts and all the information contained, so can strictly replace source 19:
https://www.britannica.com/event/Israels-disengagement-from-Gaza
https://www.unicef.org/mena/documents/gaza-strip-humanitarian-impact-15-years-blockade-june-2022
Happy to provide more information as necessary to explain why this edit is necessary or answer any questions. AndyBrown1 (talk) 02:51, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
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