Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/Yesterday
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- 100 great paintings from Duccio to Picasso (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I found no significant coverage for this book. This isn't worth a merge to the curator's page because it is unreferenced and doesn't fit well into his her biography. I'm not sure if such a title is worth a redirect to the curator. SL93 (talk) 23:49, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Arts, Literature, and England. SL93 (talk) 23:50, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Visual arts and Lists. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 04:31, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well as the article creator I disagree. You may not be familiar with the museum, but considering the large number of paintings to choose from, the distillation of notability to just 100 by the then curator of the collection is significant as an amplifier within the wider world of exhibitions during this period. The purpose of such catalogs were keepsakes for visitors, so perfect as a tool to inform casual Wikipedia readers. If the museum ever created a guide for their overall top 100 paintings it would be significant for the same reason. Saying it doesn't "fit well into his biography" is surprising, to say the least. Jane (talk) 06:46, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Jane023 It is irrelevant whether I am familiar with the museum or not. Notability does not work that way on Wikipedia, but rather per WP:BK and WP:Stand-alone lists in this case. It has no coverage as a book, and it doesn't have the notability for a stand-alone list. If the museum ever created such a guide, that guide would still need significant coverage. By "fits well into his biography", I mean that it would make his article look awkward to merge a non-notable list into her article. I, at least, have never seen such a thing. The only thing is that I typed "his" instead of "her". SL93 (talk) 09:57, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oh yes I see we are miscommunicating on a different level however. I was referring to the notability of the paintings of course. Individual curators are notable for their contributions to the study of paintings, as are the institutions that hold them. Jane (talk) 10:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- I realize that the paintings are notable, but such a list doesn't work per Wikipedia:Stand-alone lists which states, "Notability guidelines also apply to the creation of stand-alone lists and tables. Notability of lists (whether titled as "List of Xs" or "Xs") is based on the group. One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources, per the above guidelines; notable list topics are appropriate for a stand-alone list." We would need significant coverage referring specifically to "100 great paintings from Duccio to Picasso". SL93 (talk) 10:29, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oh yes I see we are miscommunicating on a different level however. I was referring to the notability of the paintings of course. Individual curators are notable for their contributions to the study of paintings, as are the institutions that hold them. Jane (talk) 10:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Jane023 It is irrelevant whether I am familiar with the museum or not. Notability does not work that way on Wikipedia, but rather per WP:BK and WP:Stand-alone lists in this case. It has no coverage as a book, and it doesn't have the notability for a stand-alone list. If the museum ever created such a guide, that guide would still need significant coverage. By "fits well into his biography", I mean that it would make his article look awkward to merge a non-notable list into her article. I, at least, have never seen such a thing. The only thing is that I typed "his" instead of "her". SL93 (talk) 09:57, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well as the article creator I disagree. You may not be familiar with the museum, but considering the large number of paintings to choose from, the distillation of notability to just 100 by the then curator of the collection is significant as an amplifier within the wider world of exhibitions during this period. The purpose of such catalogs were keepsakes for visitors, so perfect as a tool to inform casual Wikipedia readers. If the museum ever created a guide for their overall top 100 paintings it would be significant for the same reason. Saying it doesn't "fit well into his biography" is surprising, to say the least. Jane (talk) 06:46, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to Dillian Gordon. "doesn't fit well" makes little sense to me. He made the book. PARAKANYAA (talk) 06:53, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- PARAKANYAA I never said such a thing about a redirect. For a redirect, I was thinking about how probable of a search term it is, but I now guess it doesn't truly matter.SL93 (talk) 09:57, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- I mean if it's a book she wrote that's always a valid redirect unless it's so vague as to be useless. It is not vague, so I don't see why not. PARAKANYAA (talk) 18:37, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- PARAKANYAA I never said such a thing about a redirect. For a redirect, I was thinking about how probable of a search term it is, but I now guess it doesn't truly matter.SL93 (talk) 09:57, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete Significant coverage is simply missing. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 10:36, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete No significant coverage in reliable independent sources. One of the two listed "References" is another Wikipedia article, the other is the subject of the article. I have not been able to find any reliable independent sources. Elspea756 (talk) 15:40, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete; the book doesn't meet our criteria for notability. d:Wikidata:WikiProject sum of all paintings/Catalog/100 great paintings from Duccio to Picasso is a better place for this information. Ham II (talk) 20:09, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Family Constellations (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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It has been some time since I have seen an article so thin as this. An amalgamation of a lot of ideas of Bert Hellinger who may be notable in his own right (edit: I decided that he is not notable either: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bert Hellinger) but this idea of his seems to have generated very little interest and notice beyond the typical "don't fall for scams" notes and some poorly-considered publications with basically no citations. If we were to remove all the WP:CRUFT, we would be left with a simple statement that "Family Constellations is Bert Hellinger's attempt to do therapy." That's all that I can see sourced properly. Not suitable for Wikipedia. jps (talk) 22:39, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Philosophy, Psychiatry, Psychology, and South Africa. jps (talk) 22:39, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Actually, there has been some research evaluating the effectiveness of Family Constellation method, so I'd disagree with the statement that "this idea of his seems to have generated very little interest and notice".
- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33528854/
- I do agree that the article needs a thorough re-working. Zlmark (talk) 16:13, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced that Family Process is a particularly good journal to establish notability. In particular, I note that the current EiC is a professor at a for-profit college Alliant International University and the stated goals of the institute that publishes the journal seem to be aligned more with resume padding at least in terms of rhetoric. Perhaps more troubling, the final author (usually the spot reserved for the PI) is heavily conflicted in producing this research [1] and that goes uncommented on in the paper. jps (talk) 17:40, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:11, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Village Green, Christchurch (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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No longer notable after the earthquakes. Appears to fail WP:N and WP:SIGCOV. Alexeyevitch(talk) 08:55, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Cricket and New Zealand. Alexeyevitch(talk) 08:55, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: not enough WP:SIGCOV for WP:GNG. — Alien333 (what I did & why I did it wrong) 14:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to Queen Elizabeth II Park as AtD. Notability should not be lost once found, but I can't find enough WP:SIGCOV for the Village Green in the first place. Dclemens1971 (talk) 19:33, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I wanted to point out the same. Something or someone cannot lose their notability. Schwede66 08:19, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. @Sammyrice:. A NZ cricket topic up for deletion. Are you able to find anything to expand this? AA (talk) 19:56, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Please don't canvass people to vote. Traumnovelle (talk) 23:06, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Traumnovelle:. Where exactly am I canvassing someone to vote? I've tagged an editor with an interest in NZ cricket to see if they can expand the article. Are you mad? AA (talk) 18:01, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- Pinging someone you expect to vote keep is canvassing. Traumnovelle (talk) 19:46, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Traumnovelle: So you are calling into question the integrity of two long-standing editors? Nowhere am I encouraging him to vote, nor expecting him to. It's his subject area. Or shall we not expand articles? I suggest you take back your bad faith accusation. AA (talk) 06:50, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Drop it. Traumnovelle (talk) 06:56, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Traumnovelle: So you are calling into question the integrity of two long-standing editors? Nowhere am I encouraging him to vote, nor expecting him to. It's his subject area. Or shall we not expand articles? I suggest you take back your bad faith accusation. AA (talk) 06:50, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Traumnovelle:. Where exactly am I canvassing someone to vote? I've tagged an editor with an interest in NZ cricket to see if they can expand the article. Are you mad? AA (talk) 18:01, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep – ground is widely covered by The Press with enough coverage elsewhere to meet WP:SIGCOV, the "No longer notable after the earthquakes" is an odd argument. --JP (Talk) 13:46, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Jpeeling I agree with you that the "no longer notable after the earthquakes" argument is wrong, provided there was notability to begin with, But to the extent the Press articles offer WP:SIGCOV of any facility, they seem to highlight Queen Elizabeth II Park, not the Village Green venue in particular. Do you have sources that show specific coverage of the Village Green versus the broader complex it was part of? Open to switching my !vote but I need to see some SIGCOV of the specific venue rather than the complex it was part of. Dclemens1971 (talk) 16:53, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Looking through the sources the majority focus on the cricket venue rather than the wider park in general. They do mostly mention the QE2 but I think that's more to define where they are talking about given the generic name of the venue. JP (Talk) 07:57, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Jpeeling I agree with you that the "no longer notable after the earthquakes" argument is wrong, provided there was notability to begin with, But to the extent the Press articles offer WP:SIGCOV of any facility, they seem to highlight Queen Elizabeth II Park, not the Village Green venue in particular. Do you have sources that show specific coverage of the Village Green versus the broader complex it was part of? Open to switching my !vote but I need to see some SIGCOV of the specific venue rather than the complex it was part of. Dclemens1971 (talk) 16:53, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. It was a major ground for 12 years, staging five domestic one-day finals. Sammyrice (talk) 23:44, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Merge whatever is appropriate to Queen Elizabeth II Park. I read the The Press sources and none are SIGCOV of Village Green but rather of the park or other buildings within the park. Traumnovelle (talk) 07:01, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. Per recent expansion. AA (talk) 08:20, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Merge/redirect into the main QEII article.David Palmer//cloventt (talk) 22:03, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 22:51, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- List of NCAA Division III independents football records (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Topic is not notable enough for a standalone article, fails WP:NLIST and WP:NOTDIRECTORY. This is a list of records for loosely-related college football team seasons. These teams are "independent" and do not belong to conferences, only joined together because they are in a division of college football together. The text in many of these templates also show up as wikitext because of improper code writing. This list was also created as a way to try avoiding deletion of the individual templates at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 June 13#Template:2023 NCAA Division III independents football records. Eagles 24/7 (C) 14:07, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: American football and Lists. Eagles 24/7 (C) 14:07, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: Nothing is here connecting these records together; fails WP:NLIST. Let'srun (talk) 12:35, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: Member of an already established set of pages. (List of Division I FBS independents football standings (1973–present), List of NCAA Division II independents football records) Unless you plan on also nominating both of those for deletion to remain consistent. But I reckon that is not the plan since this is the only one hindering the deletion of the Division III independent templates. Thetreesarespeakingtome (talk) 17:57, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per Thetreesarespeakingtome. At the very least, this article could be merged to NCAA Division III independent schools. Jweiss11 (talk) 03:10, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Herald (Benison) (talk) 15:22, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Wikipedia is not a stats sheet. SpacedFarmer (talk) 20:24, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
- Just saying - if this isn't a notable list/container article, none of the standings template pages are notable. SportingFlyer T·C 17:38, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
- I did not nominate other articles similar to this because I feel this one in particular is the least notable, and I don't agree that everything else would have to be deleted as a result of this discussion. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS would apply. Eagles 24/7 (C) 16:58, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Reopening and relisting following a deletion review.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Barkeep49 (talk) 21:52, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete, do not merge, do not redirect.
- I agree with previous delete supporters that the absence of athletic conferences makes the connections among these teams and records too weak to justify an article per WP:NLIST (shortcut to WP:Notability#Stand-alone lists, guideline).
- There are significant issues with merging to NCAA Division III independent schools as suggested by Jweiss11.
- List of NCAA Division III independents football records is a historical list of season records going back to 1973. Very few schools are included in recent years: 2024, 2023, and 2022 each list one or two teams.
- NCAA Division III independent schools is the current list of independent schools. The Football section contains only Maine Maritime Academy, which is highlighted in pink because it will join the Commonwealth Coast Conference in 2025 and be removed from the table. No records are included for any sport. There is a historical list of former full (all sports) independents under Former members.
- A comprehensive merge would create WP:WEIGHT (shortcut to WP:Neutral point of view#Due and undue weight, policy) problems. Merging only 2024 would have the same problems, only less pronounced.
- Jweiss11 included no details beyond the destination's title and made no argument for merging, contrary to the recommendations of WP:Merge what? (essay).
- If no content is merged, I believe a redirect would be deleted at WP:Redirects for discussion as "not mentioned at target".
- Disclosure: I recommended relist or overturn to no consensus at the DRV.
- Redirect. Allow a possible merge from the history. Give it time, and then let Flatscan’s hypothetical RfD play out. Flatscan is over-sure of future editing. Otherwise, per Flatscan, and if it results as he predicts, so be it. — SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:34, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Flatscan's being overly generous when they say they "believe" such a redirect would be deleted at RFD. It would be more accurate to say it would never be kept in a million years, and would be an R3 speedy deletion candidate were it not exempt due to age and for having article-like content in the history. Forcing a second discussion at RFD under these circumstances is nonsensical. Even if there was anything merged and not immediately reverted, a redirect is unnecessary - there's zero copyrightable content on this page, so retaining the history is unnecessary for attribution. —Cryptic 14:55, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- 1xbet (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Nomination to deletion initiated due to:
1) WP:NOTNEWS + WP:NOTBLOG: Wikipedia article is not list of press releases and company's announcements. Notorious 1xbet Wikipedia article written like a regular report by marketing specialist to his boss about Brand marketing activities. Not any single sentences applies to WP:Notability, except Controversies (See WP:NOCRIT, which means all article's reliable sources cannot refer only Criticism) and information regarding fraud activities.
2) Cross-Wiki WP:SPAM activities, including WP:Salting by Ru-Wiki Admin, FR-wiki, many other wiki(s).
3) WP:G5: decent contribution since creation by network of sockpuppets headed by User:Keith161; Refer to Meta-Wiki's Project Antispam.
≈ In conclusion, delete/draftify and wait to further re-creation by experienced and recognized author on WP:AFC in completely encyclopedic style with many independent and reliable significant coverage references on each sentence. Indiana's Football (talk) 11:07, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Companies. Indiana's Football (talk) 11:07, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2024 July 22. —cyberbot ITalk to my owner:Online 11:39, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 15:31, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: The 1xBet article meets Wikipedia's notability guidelines through its detailed documentation of the company’s background and significant milestones, such as partnerships with FC Barcelona and Paris Saint-Germain, this appears to be in a similar fashion to other gambling companies such as Bet365, DraftKings and Betfred just to name a few. These sections and the controversies sections are supported by reliable, independent sources, ensuring unbiased verifiability. The content is not a list of press releases but a factual account of the company's history, developments and controversies which are crucial to understanding their impact in the industry. Any promotional language can be adjusted to enhance the encyclopedic tone and neutrality of the article. Bringmethesunset (talk) 15:57, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- 1xbet does not look ready for mainspace, but it's notable enough to be draftified, it has to be handled through AfC. Also just because other stuff exists doesn't mean that 1xbet has to have a page in mainspace in such blatant promotion condition. TBH, Bet365, DraftKings and Betfred not doing cross-wiki spam (as 1xbet did), so they exist.
- Secondly, notice WP:COI and try to improve the page in constructive way instead of defending blatand promotion. How about Draftify 1xbet and together work on the development from scratch (with other editors on WikiProject Companies) for 4-5 months before it will accomplish all Wikipedia guidelines and policies? So anxious to get an answer. Indiana's Football (talk) 17:00, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- To clarify, I am not saying that because other gambling company articles exist that this one should. It was a response to you calling into question how the article is written. My intent was to give other examples within the gambling niche that have the same structure, e.g. 'Lead', 'History', 'Sponsors', 'Controversies' sections, etc.
- I agree with you that the 'Controversies' section is important. However, it needs to be a part of a balanced article, and suggesting that the article should only be focused on controversies is in blatant violation of WP:NPOV and WP:CRITS. I want to call into question what your motive is and why it is so important to you that the article only focuses on controversies and nothing else? Do you have a vendetta against the company that influences this need for a negative bias?
- I can see another user has left a comment on your talk page stating that you shouldn’t be jumping into areas that are unsuitable for new editors, as this defies Wikipedia guidelines. Unless you have been blocked before and this is a new account you have created? Your account is about 20 days old, but you have the knowledge of an experienced user – something doesn't add up, and you have all of the telltale signs of a sock puppet. Bringmethesunset (talk) 14:52, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- 1. Article(s) cannot be based only on press-releases (WP:SIRS).
- 2. Article(s) cannot be based only on criticism (even if Criticism with reliable independent significant coverage sources (WP:CRIT)). 3.
- 3. So how about Draftify an article 1xbet and work on it together for a few months? For example, we can draft History paragraph instead of Ad in form of Expansion section? You still haven't answered, buddy. Indiana's Football (talk) 07:44, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- There is no necessity to re-write the article as it is already comprehensive and well balanced. Instead of deleting and re-drafting the page, the best thing to do is to focus on improving the current article by updating references, consolidating repetitive information and making any changes that improve readability.
- It is obvious you have a biased agenda as you deleted my most recent edit, which contained well-referenced information from a reliable source, whilst you made no attempt to remove any unreferenced information. This serves as proof that you have a vendetta against this company, and this is influencing and driving your agenda to re-draft the page with a focus on controversy. We can constructively edit the current article and have civil discussions on the talk page, but I don't agree to drafting a new article.
- You have also ignored my previous point, so I will ask again, how do you have such a deep understanding on the knowledge and usage of advance Wikipedia strategy after editing for only a few weeks? I’m not convinced this is your first time here and I highly suspect you may have been banned before and I don’t think it would be a good idea if you drafted a new article. Bringmethesunset (talk) 15:40, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Although I disagree with you about the article being deleted for the reasons mentioned above, I do agree that some sources could be improved and I have updated them. I still stand by not deleting and instead improving it via constructive talk page discussions. Bringmethesunset (talk) 14:18, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: According to the 1xbet page history, User:Keith161 after puppet User:Timtime88 fallen down, created another one called Bringmethesunset to continue promoting corporate brand by loading indefinite number of press releases. Blatant promotion, probably even WP:SALT can be applied. Can you feel puppet's pain across the screen so he hurry up to defend 1xbet here? Request to check page history, user contributions and CheckUserIP could be applied. Indiana's Football (talk) 16:47, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. GiantSnowman 18:13, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting as there is no consensus here. Both editors should refrain from casting aspersions on each other. WP:SPI is where you should inquire about potential sockpuppery, please keep accusations out of AFD discussions which should focus on the merits of the article.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 21:46, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Canadian Future Party (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Non-notable protest/vanity political party. Was formerly a redirect to its founder/leader, Dominic Cardy, a former New Brunswick New Democrat who was elected to the provincial legislature as a Conservative and later expelled from the Conservative caucus. In 2023 after the federal Conservative Party elected Pierre Poilievre its new leader, Cardy and a small number of disgruntled party members split off and formed their own party, at one time called "Centre Ice Conservatives", later "Centre Ice Canadians", and now registered eligible to register as the Canadian Future Party. This party got a blip of coverage when it was formed last September, including a hit piece used as a reference here which opines in its first paragraph, "this tiny group of disgruntled politicos has no political future in Canada". It has had not a single bit of coverage since, other than very brief passing mentions in routine coverage of federal politics. The article as it stands is a promotional coat rack leaning on the prestige of a few notable political figures who were associated with the party's predecessor groups before splitting from the CPC, but are not evidently currently involved with it at all. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:41, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Politicians, Politics, and Canada. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 21:41, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep the party has just met Elections Canada eligibility requirements which means they have passed the notability threshold and as of July 22, 2024 are listed as an "eligible party" on the Elections Canada website [2]. Wellington Bay (talk) 22:08, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Wellington Bay, WP:NORG is very clear that political parties are not awarded "inherent notability" simply for existing, and must meet WP:GNG (WP:ORGCRIT). Curbon7 (talk) 23:11, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Looking at List of political parties in Canada our practice has been that recognition by Elections Canada or a provincial equivalent establishes inherent notability. Wellington Bay (talk) 23:27, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- There is no such thing as inherent notability. Cullen328 (talk) 00:43, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well, given that they have managed to pass Elections Canada's criteria, vanity project or not, they will be as notable as any other minor party soon if they aren't already. Wellington Bay (talk) 02:16, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- There is no such thing as inherent notability. Cullen328 (talk) 00:43, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 04:32, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete Per WP:ORGSIG: "No company or organization is considered inherently notable. No organization is exempt from this requirement, no matter what kind of organization it is, including schools." Also per WP:ORGCRIT: "A company, corporation, organization, group, product, or service is presumed notable if it has been the subject of significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject" - this fails that test, and political parties are not exempt. AusLondonder (talk) 14:30, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - well, given that the party has announced it will be running candidates in the upcoming byelections and general election it is likely that it will be receiving more independent, verifiable coverage this year and next, so I ask that the article be replaced with a redirect to Dominic Cardy so that future editors don't have to start from scratch once there are more sources. Wellington Bay (talk) 16:09, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- SMK Seri Kembangan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Article does not satisfy Wikipedia's general notability guidelines ; most of the secondary sources cited are paid materials by Multimedia University (see WP:SPIP.) N niyaz (talk) 10:06, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Education, Schools, and Malaysia. Shellwood (talk) 10:20, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2024 July 8. —cyberbot ITalk to my owner:Online 10:21, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment Since I cited most of the secondary sources in the article. I would like to ask the nominator for deletion N niyaz, is it possible to list some of the secondary sources that you claimed are paid materials by Asia Pacific University? KjjjKjjj (talk) 11:06, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- Okay @KjjjKjjj I made a little mistake there, what I meant was Multimedia University. Also the school receives no significant coverage and most of the sources are just mentions. Unfortunately what's best is to make it a redirect.
- https://www.wilayahku.com.my/smk-seri-permaisuri-antara-13-sekolah-angkat-mmu/
- https://sinarbestari.sinarharian.com.my/ipt/sekolah-angkat-mmu-persiapkan-pelajar-ke-arah-digitalisasi N niyaz (talk) 13:36, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- @N niyaz: If I'm not mistaken and correct me If I'm wrong, both of the sources you said have no mention of being paid. KjjjKjjj (talk) 14:26, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- @KjjjKjjj You could already tell by the topic and style of the writing that it is a press release/paid article. Trying to find a paid article disclaimer in the sources is just stupid. N niyaz (talk) 06:00, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
- @N niyaz: If I'm not mistaken and correct me If I'm wrong, both of the sources you said have no mention of being paid. KjjjKjjj (talk) 14:26, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep Multiple secondary sources, passes WP:NOTABILITY at it's barest. KjjjKjjj (talk) 14:22, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 12:38, 15 July 2024 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 13:28, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Weak delete. Checked the sources listed in English. None of them provide significant coverage, just mentions or sponsored content/press releases. Cannot check sources in Malay, hence weak. Tried to find some more coverage for this article, but failed. Vorann Gencov (talk) 15:28, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist. I disagree that "Trying to find a paid article disclaimer in the sources is just stupid", online content often includes a statement when it is sponsored content.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 21:38, 29 July 2024 (UTC)- Although often it's not mandatory for them to declare it. The article
- https://www.wilayahku.com.my/smk-seri-permaisuri-antara-13-sekolah-angkat-mmu/
- https://sinarbestari.sinarharian.com.my/ipt/sekolah-angkat-mmu-persiapkan-pelajar-ke-arah-digitalisasi
- is obviously a press release and not a reliable source. N niyaz (talk) 10:16, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Alyy Patel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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WP:BLP of an activist and writer, not properly referenced as passing inclusion criteria for activists or writers. As always, people are not "inherently" notable just because they exist, and have to be shown to pass WP:GNG on third-party coverage about their work in reliable sources independent of themselves.
That is, you do not make a writer notable by sourcing her writing to itself as proof that it exists, you make a writer notable by sourcing her writing to coverage and analysis about her writing, such as news articles about her, analytical reviews of her writing in newspapers or magazines or academic journals, and on and so forth -- and you don't make an activist notable by sourcing her activism to the self-published websites of the organizations she has been directly affiliated with, you make an activist notable by sourcing her activism to third-party coverage about it, such as news articles about her, book content about her, and on and so forth.
But this is supported entirely by primary sources with absolutely no evidence of GNG-worthy coverage shown at all: 11 of the footnotes are just the publication details of her own writing, and a 12th is just the publication details of an anthology that one of her pieces was in; one is a Q&A interview in which she's talking about herself in the first person, which would be acceptable for use if the other sourcing around it were better but does not help to get her over GNG in and of itself per WP:INTERVIEWS; another is just a YouTube video clip of her speaking, which she self-published to her own YouTube channel; and all of the rest is content self-published by non-media organizations she's directly connected to -- which means absolutely none of the footnotes are GNG-compliant at all.
Again, the notability test doesn't reside in the things she did, it resides in the amount of GNG-worthy coverage she has or hasn't received about the things she did, and nothing stated here is "inherently" notable enough to exempt her from having to be referenced better than this.
Also note that normally I would just have sandboxed this in draftspace as improperly sourced, but another editor has already done that and the creator just immediately unsandboxed it right back into mainspace without actually improving the sourcing. Bearcat (talk) 15:42, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Authors, Women, Sexuality and gender, and Canada. Bearcat (talk) 15:42, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: Lack of sourcing; there are simply no stories about this individual in RS. This [3] is a student newspaper and this is primary [4]. Most of the sources used in the article aren't useful either. Oaktree b (talk) 16:55, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep:
- - more Sources got added, below are two more Interviews
- - https://www.friesenpress.com/blog/2023/6/27/alyy-patel-author-interview
- - https://urbanasian.com/crown-the-brown/2020/02/valentines-pride-praanee-and-alyy-were-desi-gender-fluid-in-love/ Cupkake4Yoshi (talk) 10:41, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- Interviews are not WP:GNG-building sourcing. A source has to represent somebody else talking about her in the third person, not her talking about herself or something else in the first. Bearcat (talk) 16:13, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 21:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Marc Cayce (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Highly promotional page for non-notable director, recreated and moved to mainspace after soft deletion in 2023. No evidence that he passes WP:GNG, WP:NBIO, or WP:FILMMAKER. There is no evidence beyond WP:USERGENERATED IMDb that he co-directed Trapped: Haitian Nights, the one notable production in his filmography, or that his direct-to-video "A Day of Trouble" premiered at Cannes. Sources are all press releases, WP:INTERVIEWS and similar primary sources, as well as a handful of tabloid items disallowed for notability under WP:SBST. Dclemens1971 (talk) 16:53, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Delete: Hardly any coverage of his career, some confirmation here in regards to a sexual assault allegation [5], which doesn't help notability (beyond confirming his work). The sources used in the article are as described by the nom, non-helpful. Vaguely PROMO as well. Oaktree b (talk) 21:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting, not eligible for Soft Deletion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 21:33, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Skwatta Kamp (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Doesn't meet WP:NMUSIC with no notable discography or chart activity, while their "numerous awards" mentioned in article include only two regional ones. Article has been a poorly-sourced stub since its 2015 creation, and searches turn up the usual niche sites (YouTube, Bandcamp, Genius, et al.) or stories about member deaths. 💥Casualty • Hop along. • 00:57, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:38, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep Meets notability criterion 3 of WP:BAND (Has had a record certified gold or higher in at least one country). [6]. Also got coverage from national circulation WP:RS.[7] [8][9][10] [11][12], and they are described in those RS as "legendary" and "revolutionary" indicating that they meet WP:GNG. Also not sure why all the stories about their members dying etc in WP:RS are not indicative of notability as per nom. WP:NOTCLEANUP applies as well. Park3r (talk) 07:10, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 21:24, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep the South African Music Awards that the group won are notable national awards, and there is also reliable sources coverage as described by Park3r, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 20:23, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- William J. Callahan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Fails WP:GNG and WP:BIO. Not all senior government officials are notable enough to justify a WP article. Mentions of Callahan in WP:RS are WP:TRIVIAL related to his WP:ROUTINE job duties and not WP:SIGCOV focused on Callahan that would establish his notability. Longhornsg (talk) 01:17, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Politics and United States of America. Longhornsg (talk) 01:17, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:39, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose - sufficient sources are included in the article to satisfy notability.XavierGreen (talk) 14:56, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- I see little justification for deletion - he held the position. Political? OLDGUY50 (talk) 15:24, 23 July 2024 (UTC) — OLDGUY50 (talk) • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic
- I also see little justification for deletion as he held the position and was within the agency for 25 plus years. 198.100.2.74 (talk) 16:31, 23 July 2024 (UTC) — 198.100.2.74 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Comment. So far no policy-based justification or RS presented to justify keeping. Only source with WP:SIGCOV in the article is a WP:TRIVIALMENTION and an official biography. Longhornsg (talk) 16:37, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: "Gov't official did gov't official things". Nothing notable in his actions, nor in the coverage, which remains trivial. Both of the references fail WP:SIRS for this topic. - UtherSRG (talk) 20:08, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to Director of the United States Secret Service#William J. Callahan (with the history preserved under the redirect) per Wikipedia:Deletion policy#Alternatives to deletion. In my searches for sources, I found only passing mentions about the subject. The subject does not meet Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline or Wikipedia:Notability (people). The closest additional criteria is Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Politicians and judges, but the Director of the United States Secret Service is not a politician or judge so that part of the guideline does not apply.
A redirect with the history preserved under the redirect will allow editors to selectively merge any content that can be reliably sourced to the target article. A redirect with the history preserved under the redirect will allow the redirect to be undone if significant coverage in reliable sources is found in the future. Cunard (talk) 07:54, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- I support this WP:ATD. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:51, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete He exists, yes. Is he notable per WP:NBIO? Clearly not. No in-depth coverage, just name drops and primary sources. Don't strongly oppose a redirect but also not sure it's desirable when there are other people of the same name who attracted media attention such as a soldier killed in Iraq AusLondonder (talk) 17:18, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete Two sources on a BLP is not notable. Felicia (talk) 17:58, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Two sources would be sufficient for a BLP to pass Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria if these two criteria were met:
- the two sources were independent reliable sources that provided significant coverage of the subject and
- the two sources did not cover the subject in the context of only one event
- Two sources would be sufficient for a BLP to pass Wikipedia:Notability (people)#Basic criteria if these two criteria were met:
- Comment: AusLonder raises a good point that there are other people with the same name. Instead of redirecting William J. Callahan to Director of the United States Secret Service#William J. Callahan, I propose a redirect of William J. Callahan to the disambiguation page William Callahan which can cover all of the people named William J. Callahan who are mentioned on Wikipedia. To keep the history of the new disambiguation page separate from that of the Secret Service official, the article on William J. Callahan could be moved to William J. Callahan (Secret Service)—which matches the disambiguation for another Secret Service director article, Joseph Clancy (Secret Service)—and then redirected to Director of the United States Secret Service#William J. Callahan.
I could not find the soldier killed in Iraq mentioned on Wikipedia. According to this search on "William J. Callahan", except for three articles, all of the mentions are of the Acting Director of the United States Secret Service. Those three articles are Ancient Regime of Spain (where there is a William J. Callahan who is the author of a reference), Sacco and Vanzetti (where there is a William J. Callahan who is mentioned as an attorney), and 1936 United States Senate election in New Hampshire (where there is a William J. Callahan who is mentioned as a political candidate).
Some of these people can be mentioned at William Callahan per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Disambiguation pages#Items appearing within other articles. Cunard (talk) 06:55, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: Fails notability. Wakeupking (talk) 19:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- Move then redirect per Cunard. This is a very thorough and well thought-out ATD that respects page history, PRIMARYTOPIC and COMMONNAME. Bobby Cohn (talk) 16:35, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: These suggested ATD instructions are too complicated. I was going to close this as Delete because they are confusing but decided to relist instead. Just state what you want to happen with THIS article not other articles. And if you want this article Moved, then "vote" to Keep and later editors can discuss a page move after this AFD is closed. AFD has a limited number of closure options, please make your argument from among them: Keep, Delete, Redirect, Merge and Draftify.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 21:24, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Operation Atilla (Turkish Invasion of Cyprus) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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This article should be deleted, as it seems to overlap with Turkish invasion of Cyprus. LR.127 (talk) 09:16, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Delete: WP:REDUNDANTFORK Aintabli (talk) 06:54, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. D.S. Lioness (talk) 17:17, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: WP:SPINOFF The article Turkish invasion of Cyprus only provides an overview of the military activities in three short paragraphs, however this article vastly expands on that information. Any overlap is just enough to provide context to this extra detail Farrier-as (talk) 06:29, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep as a legitimate SPINOFF. Not sure how this could have been nominated or supported. The PRODding without as much as an edit summary was a disgrace. If there is no case whatsoever for deletion, an article should NEVER be considered for PROD! Yet another user moved the article without any debate. Maybe we should limit editing access to this article. gidonb (talk) 16:16, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Herald (Benison) (talk) 20:45, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Speedy keep: per WP:SPINOFF and other keep votes above. The sub-topic is notable enough and there is enough sourced information for it’s own article. Lordseriouspig 22:07, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete or at the very least change the name to "Combat operations during the invasion of Cyprus" as operation atilla was the name of the Turkish military operation
- Abdali Hospital (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Still not notable. The last AfD (when the article was named Abdali Medical Center) was 5 years ago and the decision was to keep the article although it is notable that there was a number of editors saying it met GNG but didn't/wouldn't consider whether the sourcing met NCORP criteria. Nothing has changed in the meantime for me. This is a company therefore GNG/WP:NCORP requires at least two deep or significant sources with each source containing "Independent Content" showing in-depth information *on the company*. "Independent content", in order to count towards establishing notability, must include original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject. None of the references have content that meets these criteria. HighKing++ 17:25, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Malinaccier (talk) 20:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ⇌ Jake Wartenberg 20:40, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- The Ivory Tower (album) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I'm not sure if this album is notable. There's a PopMatters review and there's a brief review in HM (magazine) (page 32). According to the Wikipedia article, there's also a Kerrang review, but I wasn't able to find it; according to oldies.com music mail-order company, it at least contained the words "Taking driving riffs and breakdowns from emo and the huge radio-hugging choruses of, say, Journey or Mister Mister, Orange County quintet Takota are on to a winner on this, their debut album." Other than that, there's a Punktastic review, consisting of 10 adjectives, there's an Alternative Vision review (listed as generally unreliable on WP:A/S), and there's a NeuFutur review, a publication I hadn't heard of until today. toweli (talk) 16:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Albums and songs, United States of America, and California. toweli (talk) 16:20, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. This was a pretty good BEFORE, which it would be good to merge into the Takota article at least. There is also supposed to be a review printed in this edition of Burn. Geschichte (talk) 07:05, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Malinaccier (talk) 20:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ⇌ Jake Wartenberg 20:40, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to the band. Geschichte (talk) 21:33, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Collective PAC (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Pretty much all in-depth coverage I could find on Collective PAC were either about its founders (Stefanie and Quentin James) or articles where its founders were quoted, with a short snippet mentioning that they founded a PAC. You could make a decent case that Stefanie and Quentin James are notable, but the same can't really be said for Collective PAC. An editor removed my PROD from this page on the basis that they found a more recent source--a Hill article from 2024 with 1 sentence mentioning Collective PAC and a brief quote from Quentin James. Most coverage I could find of this PAC is like that: an article about PACs more broadly that simply mentions Collective PAC in passing. BottleOfChocolateMilk (talk) 17:38, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Not eligible for soft deletion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Owen× ☎ 19:18, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Results of the 2008 Nepalese Constituent Assembly election (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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The article has incomplete results, only has one reference which is just the election commission website. The page List of members elected in the 2008 Nepalese Constituent Assembly election already lists the winners and other information has been or can be added to pages for the constituency. PenGear (talk) 19:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- I don't remember why I created this, whether this was a split from an article or created to place the election tables that were probably in templates before they were deleted. Anyways, I have nothing to add here. Gonnym (talk) 19:20, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- 1977 Allentown mayoral election (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Okay, this will be thorough on this one, since lots of these mayoral election deletions have ended as trainwrecks for me. This article is a vialation of WP:NEVENT, as it fails to have significant lasting coverage that fails to qualify. THERE IS NO AUTOMATIC NOTABILITY FOR MAYORAL ELECTIONS, as shown here, here, here, here, and here of articles of similar size or larger to Allentown.
A quick WP:BEFORE fails to find any significant lasting coverage as well on Google or ProQuest.
Now, it looks like the article is long, so it must have good sources? Not to establish notability. Let's see if any of these sources match the description of "An event is presumed to be notable if it has lasting major consequences or affects a major geographical scope, or receives significant non-routine coverage that persists over a period of time. Coverage should be in multiple reliable sources with national or global scope." per WP:EVENT.
Source assessment table: prepared by User:1ctinus
| ||||
Source | Independent? | Reliable? | Significant coverage? | Count source toward GNG? |
---|---|---|---|---|
https://www.mcall.com/2016/10/14/frank-fischl-decorated-air-force-pilot-and-former-allentown-mayor-dies-at-89/ | ~ | ![]() |
![]() |
✘ No |
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/284052961/ | ~ | ![]() |
![]() |
✘ No |
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/280057542/ | ~ | ? | ![]() |
✘ No |
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1981/08/12/Political-contribution-from-the-grave/1905366436800/ | ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
✘ No |
https://www.mcall.com/2004/12/12/whatever-became-of-former-allentown-mayor-frank-fischl/ | ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
✘ No |
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/283995190/ | ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
✘ No |
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{source assess table}}. |
If deletion seems too much, I propose two alternatives:
- Merge all the Allentown mayoral election articles for future maintainability and navigability
- (which is better in my opinion). Redirect to Frank Fischl, which most of the coverage seems to be on.
Before I end, a quick note to administrators and voters: please remember to use actual Wikipedia policy instead of using or endorsing arguments like "I like Pennsylvania history, so this must be important" or "this is useful information". These are both arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. Wikipedia is not a database, or an indiscriminate collection of information. I am limiting this to one article at a time to avoid a trainwreck nomination. -1ctinus📝🗨 19:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Events, Politics, and Pennsylvania. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 19:14, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose on precedent you can't just delete one of the Allentown elections. you'd have to delete all of them. Scu ba (talk) 03:26, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- I’m trying to avoid a WP:TRAINWRECK and a procedural close. This happened previously -1ctinus📝🗨 04:03, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Scu ba: I don't agree with that at all. It is appropriate to evaluate each election article on its own merits. AusLondonder (talk) 15:04, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose on precedent you can't just delete one of the Allentown elections. you'd have to delete all of them. Scu ba (talk) 03:26, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Masada myth (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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This new article falls short of Wikipedia's content policies in several critical areas: WP:NPOV, WP:NOTABILITY, WP:VER. Firstly, the article relies heavily on broad claims and does not really verify its arguments with credible, independent sources. There are assertions of "fabrications and omissions" which are made without scholarly backing, making the article’s claims questionable and unneutral.
However, the main point is that the very definition of this article selectively promotes one point of view over the others regarding what exactly happened in Masada. The academic debate is mostly around the specifics of the siege's conclusion: whether a mass suicide and final battle happened as Josephus says, or if something else happened, since there are neither confirming nor refuting archaeological evidence for what happened to the rebels (the siege itself is firmly evidenced). If we fix this POV issue, this article will become an overview of the debates surrounding reconstruction of the events on Masada, which does not need their own article. Other issues presented as part of the myth (myths are generally not neccesarily entirely fictional), like whether the Jews in Masada can be considered freedom fighters or not, remains mostly subjective.
Given that Masada is well-documented and discussed in better-defined and more comprehensive articles like Masada and siege of Masada, the academic debate surrounding its end and its symbolism in modern culture should be presented there. This would ensure that the discussion of the Masada myth is presented within the broader context of scholarly debate. HaOfa (talk) 14:52, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
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- The nominator's first paragraph is odd. They describe
assertions of "fabrications and omissions" which are made without scholarly backing
, yet the article’s very first footnote contains a quotation from Nachman Ben-Yehuda, professor emeritus and former dean of the department of sociology and anthropology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem from 1996: "On the professional level, we now know that the Masada myth is a particular selective historically invented sequence (narrative) based, partially, on Josephus Flavius's account, minus some very important details and supplemented by items ranging from a rather liberal interpretation of his writings to sheer fabrication". - The decision not to read the article carefully enough before opening this discussion may have resulted in the misunderstanding shown in the second paragraph of the nomination. There is no scholarly debate on this topic. The questions mentioned by the nominator have nothing to do with this topic. This topic is about the version of the siege story created by early Zionists for nationalism purposes which markedly differs from the only historical version of the story in existence, which is Josephus’s version. The differences between the two versions is summarized at Masada myth#Table of elements. The sources show that this national myth topic is much more notable than the actual siege itself. Onceinawhile (talk) 15:36, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- The nominator's first paragraph is odd. They describe
- keep, article is well-sourced.
the very definition of this article selectively promotes one point of view
- it discusses the myth, and because this myth exists and is discussed in multiple scholarly sources, the topic passes notability guidelines. It can be see as a Legacy section for the main siege of Masada article, but because of its length it's better to have a separate one. Artem.G (talk) 15:42, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- delete, I agree the content should be much more balanced and that discussions of Masada in Israeli culture should be described as part of the article on Masada where it has more relevant context and all the relevant views.
- Delete. Info on the myth should be included under the main topic, either "Masada" or "Siege of Masada," alongside the main scholarly opinions and with stronger sourcing (if exists), as some of the claims made here are controversial and lack balance. Masada#Legacy could be a good option. PeleYoetz (talk) 20:23, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep The nomination is faulty to say the least, there is no "academic debate" over the siege's conclusion and the matter is referenced as a national myth promoted by the Zionist movement in the UNESCO world heritage nomination for Masada. Clearly meets GNG and the material is more than sufficient to justify an independent article.Selfstudier (talk) 09:19, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for highlighting this. For others’ ease of reference, relevant excerpts are shown below. Onceinawhile (talk) 12:56, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- • Delete - The content of this article is completely out of context and therefore leads to misunderstanding. If the content is to remain, it belongs in the main article about Masada or the Siege of Masada, as has been suggested above by the nominator.
- That being said, I am not sure the content should remain altogether. The article is heavily one-sided, it uses questionable phrasing and sources, and quotes selectively from the sources it cites. For example, the source quoted most in the article is Ben-Yehuda's book, which is criticized for being superficial, having a main theory which relies on a misunderstanding of historiographical issues, and being inconsistent in its application of the constructionist method which it officially adopts, but only uses when comfortable, among many other criticisms.(see https://www.jstor.org/stable/43044142) The book is also not self-aware, and is representative mainly of the subjective-constructionist approach, but does not represent the objective approach adequately, and therefore is given undue weight in the article, which relies on this approach exclusively. (ibid.)
- As an example for selective quoting of the source, the article ignores the sections of the book which discuss the decline of the "Masada Myth" (Ben Yehuda P. 253 and onward, Magness P. 199).
- The article relies heavily on the identification of the inhabitants of Masada as Sicarii, as mentioned by Josephus, and while the passage quoted from the book by Magness is rather blunt -"How did the site of a reported mass suicide of a band of Jewish rebels who terrorized other Jews become a symbol of the modern State of Israel? The creation of the Masada myth—in which these Jewish terrorists are transformed into freedom fighters and the mass suicide becomes a heroic last stand-has been explored by a number of scholars." (Magness P. 197) It is clear that her biting rhetoric is meant to magnify the question she presents. Her actual position, together with other opinions, is mentioned in a previous chapter: "The Jews at Masada likely included unaffiliated individuals and families as well as members of groups such as the Qumran Sect/Essenes",(Magness P. 164) and: "The nature and even the very existence of the Zealots and sicarii are also debated by scholars. Steve Mason proposes that instead of being a distinct faction, the term sicarii was used by Josephus as a “scare-word” to evoke a particular kind of violence and terrorism. Hanan Eshel speculated that because Josephus was a Zealot leader at the beginning of the revolt, when writing War years later he artificially distinguished between the “moderate” Zealots and the “extremist” sicarii, pinning on the latter the responsibility for the disastrous outcome of the revolt and thereby distancing himself. Here I use the terms rebels and refugees to encompass the variety of backgrounds and affiliations represented among the Jews at Masada."(Magness P.165) And so, this would be another example of selective quotation. But regarding the point of discussion, it is not clear whether the Sicarii inhabited Masada at all. The possibility that the inhabitants of Masada were in fact not Sicarii, together with the fact that both Ben-Yehuda and Magness state explicitly that although archaeology cannot confirm the narrative given by Josephus, it also cannot refute it (Ben-Yehuda P.57, Magness P. 195-196), make the idea of the Masada Myth "whitewashing" history or supplementing it "with fabrications and omissions" lose much of its weight, seeing as much is still left for interpretation. The article is both problematic and out of context, therefore it should be deleted or merged into existing articles. Uppagus (talk) 16:00, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
MASADA: PROPOSED WORLD HERlTAGE SlTE by the State of Israel, 2000
- p.4: Josephus Flavius’s account of the revolt of the Jews, who realized that their end was near and preferred to commit suicide and die as free people as opposed to the option of living in slavery and degradation in Rome, became in the 20th century the Myth of Masada. The Myth was one of the corner stones of the Zionist Movement, whose desire was to renew the Jewish life in Zion, which is the Land of Israel. The pinnacle of the identification with the Myth, as an example of valor and sacrifice, was during the Second World War.
- p.41: Masada in the Zionist Ethos: The story of Masada - the suicide of the Jewish Zealots who preferred to die as free people and not live as slaves in Rome - which is called the myth of Masada - affected the Jewish pioneers in the years before the founding of the state of Israel, in 1948. The call of the Jewish refugee in the poem written by Lamdan in the early 1920s “Open your gates, Masada, and I, the refugee will enter”, became the cry of the Jewish pioneers for freedom. For them, only the land of Israel is the real refuge, which was forged out of agony. Lamdan coined the famous phrase “Masada won’t fall again”. The most significant example expressing the identification with the myth of Masada was during World-War 2, when Romell’s troops threatened from Egypt in the south and the pro Nazi Vichy regime threatened from Lebanon in the north. The Jews in Israel felt sieged like the Zealots in Masada: struggling for liberation and ready to sacrifice their lives for it.
- p.44: It’s true that the development of Masada site derives partly from the myth and the movie…
*Delete, this is better as part of the Masada article, and would need some NPOV work even there. While a national and cultural myth has grown around Masada, this article is distinctly biased against the Masada defenders, and reads like an attack page. If it is not deleted, it needs to be made more neutral. Jerdle (talk) 02:26, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Huldra Why does an editor have to be an EC to vote here? This is an article that is in no way related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Eladkarmel (talk) 06:32, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- User:Eladkarmel: as a rather central myth in modern Israel, I would unquestionably place it as part of the conflict. Huldra (talk) 23:26, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see the relevance to the Arab-Israeli conflict. The topic at hand is how an event from ancient history is viewed in modern Israeli culture. This vote seems as valid as any other... HaOfa (talk) 19:01, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- The EC is broad. It includes anything from food (Hummus, Za'atar, Tabbouleh, or Falafel) to academics (Ian Lustick, Benny Morris), to anything else even touching on the issue. This article is clearly within its limits, Huldra (talk) 23:31, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- I find it interesting that a new user with 67 edits manages to find and participate in an RM about Gaza genocide, the RSN noticeboard concerning the counting of the dead in Gaza and now an AfD for something tied to Zionism (an Arbpia covered article) so "broadly construed" might well apply here. Selfstudier (talk) 19:29, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hmmm. Quite. Better not spend too much time thinking about that, though. Cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:31, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- In what way is this related to the conflict? Just because an article deals with modern Israel does not mean it pertains to the conflict. Gödel2200 (talk) 19:17, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- I would be happy, per my comment above, to have the closer determine what weight to assign to this !vote. Selfstudier (talk) 19:37, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see the relevance to the Arab-Israeli conflict. The topic at hand is how an event from ancient history is viewed in modern Israeli culture. This vote seems as valid as any other... HaOfa (talk) 19:01, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- User:Eladkarmel: as a rather central myth in modern Israel, I would unquestionably place it as part of the conflict. Huldra (talk) 23:26, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Merge (and improve) I’m having a hard time seeing a need for a stand-alone article, it would be better to merge it into one of the articles in the last paragraphs of the nom, and redirect the name there. FortunateSons (talk) 06:42, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete or Merge per FortunateSons. Eladkarmel (talk) 06:26, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep Majority of the thirteen sources are directly about the myth itself, which makes it clear this clears the hurdle for needing a standalone article. If all of the sourcing mentioned this as a footnote or a secondary topic to the proposed merge articles, I'd understand the rationale, but as is I do not. Votes calling for deletion because this article "should be much more balanced" misunderstand AfD, and should be discussing that on the talkpage. Deletion for NPOV reasons without first working with editors on the article itself is a high hurdle to clear. Parabolist (talk) 06:58, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: Notable topic, covered in reliable sources. -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 20:37, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete as a blatant WP: FORK and WP:FRINGE. Compare: Rootless cosmopolitan. I’m not unsympathetic to both sides, when it’s reasonable; see Palestinian law. This is bollcks and irredeemably bad. Bearian (talk) 14:54, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note This editor has been kind enough to admit that they did not read the citations and bibliography, because they did not have time. Onceinawhile (talk) 06:52, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Fork of what? Selfstudier (talk) 15:00, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Fringe ? How so? How can it a fork of something fringe? Selfstudier (talk) 15:01, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Please focus on the notability of the subject. Content can be fixed editorially.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Owen× ☎ 18:47, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Good grief, that is awful. Blatant WP:FORK of Siege of Masada; a merge back to the parent article with a balanced discussion of the other perspectives is in order. Mangoe (talk) 03:20, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- The word "myth" is not even in the article (lead or body) of Siege of Masada, so how is it a fork? Selfstudier (talk) 08:45, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete or merge. This article is a POV fork from its base. We cannot present some views as truth and describe all others as "myth." Even if some reliable sources use "myth" (though they seem to disagree on what is the myth exactly), this is an encyclopedia, and an encyclopedia should give a balanced coverage of all views and not one-sided articles on each. O.maximov (talk) 13:52, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- We are describing the viewpoints of "all others" as myth, as RS's call those viewpoints myth.
"though they seem to disagree on what is the myth exactly"
Which RS's are in disagreement?"An encyclopedia should give a balanced coverage of all views and not one-sided articles on each."
Yes, we should give a balanced coverage, and what that means is that we give more weight to RS's rather than myths. See WP:DUE. Gödel2200 (talk) 14:04, 30 July 2024 (UTC) - Well, that is an inexplicable view, since we already know there is no multiplicity of views and no debate, the relist comment says to focus on notability, which virtually none of the deleters do, because that is inconvenient to their arguments. And I am now finally going to point out that many of those advocating delete and/or merge are of a pro Israel disposition (I'm sure they would not disagree with that characterization) and I am minded to conclude that their positions are motivated by considerations other than a straightforward GNG assessment, in particular that it is a "Zionist" promoted myth, which in fact makes it even more notable, not less. Selfstudier (talk) 15:08, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- We are describing the viewpoints of "all others" as myth, as RS's call those viewpoints myth.
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The result was speedy deleted per WP:CSD#G7. Isabelle Belato 🏳🌈 21:46, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Alex Coffey (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Doesn't seem to meet WP:GNG or WP:JOURNALIST. All sources in article are primary or written by the subject, and WP:BEFORE search doesn't return any better coverage for me. AlexandraAVX (talk) 18:39, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Luke Hellier (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Fails WP:NPOL and WP:GNG. Generally, just being a mayor doesn’t inherently makes Hellier notable, and no evidence of passing WP:ANYBIO or WP:GNG. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 17:54, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Suicide of Aubreigh Wyatt (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Young Ms Wyatt's suicide is a tragedy, but outside of sensational coverage, it is not notable. The event has no long-term impact. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 17:44, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Delete: I agree that a standalone article is not warranted; perhaps merge with Ocean Springs School District? –Skywatcher68 (talk) 19:31, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment @Skywatcher68: Perhaps, but given the lightness of the OSSD article, I think any mention of this given case would give it WP:UNDUE weight within the overall context of the article. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 19:33, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete. I agree with everything that WikiDan61 has said. The incident is not notable enough to have its own article, and to give coverage in the school district's article to this one incident out of the entire history of the school district would be grossly disproportionate. JBW (talk) 20:24, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete per nom, this seems to be not notable enough for an article Warm Regards, Miminity (talk) (contribs) 13:01, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Tammy Tran (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Content is primarily promotional. Fails WP:GNG & WP:BIO. Lacks significant coverage in reliable, secondary sources. Geoff | Who, me? 17:37, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hi, can you please guide me what changes can i do so the article of deleting could be remove from my article Naqqash6 (talk) 18:12, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Naqqash6, did you check the links under "New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!"? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:06, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Delete: The best source is The Atlantic which might meet SIGCOV but most of it is based on what she says and one source is not enough. The other sources are primary, brief mentions and/or her comments. S0091 (talk) 18:45, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete per current sourcing. The Atlantic helps towards WP:N (there's a lot of "she says", but IMO it still counts), maybe the NYT paragraph helps a little, but that seems to be it for WP:N. Also, in a WP-article, it's not "Tammy" in running text, it's "Tran" (like in The Atlantic). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:53, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete A lawyer who started a law firm and has clients is not notable. David notMD (talk) 21:38, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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The result was speedy keep. The article asserts she was a member of Parliament, so a two-word nomination is not a useful conversation starter. (non-admin closure) Geschichte (talk) 21:41, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Anis Kidwai (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Notability issues Thewikizoomer (talk) 17:35, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Shipra Guha-Mukherjee (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Notability and significance issues Thewikizoomer (talk) 17:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Keep. I think Fellow of the Indian Academy of Sciences and National Academy of Sciences, India passes WP:PROF#C3, and we have in-depth sourcing such as [13] (pp. 24–25). The WP:VAGUEWAVE given as a nomination statement does not even address the appropriate notability guideline, WP:PROF, and "significance" is not any kind of notability criterion. Incidentally, all sources I found spell her name "Sipra"; assuming this closes as keep, we should consider moving the article. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:04, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Moved the article in advance, since the outcome seems clear. -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 13:03, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep, pointless nomination. Geschichte (talk) 21:44, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Reshma Pathan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Notability issues Thewikizoomer (talk) 17:31, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Keep, no issues needing deletion have been identified. Geschichte (talk) 21:44, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Vasko Ruseimy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Does not meet WP:NBIO. Sources are his statements, brief mentions or press releases. S0091 (talk) 16:44, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Delete Per above, non-notable, fails WP:NBIO Nyanardsan (talk) 23:12, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete does not appear to meet any of our notability criteria. Zingarese talk · contribs (please
mention me on reply; thanks!) 03:51, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Shahmina (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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This is an unsourced one-line article. When it was first created back in 2010, it was also unsourced but much longer and blatantly promotional. In the first instance, it should have been deleted per WP:G11. Now, if it were eligible, it should be deleted as an WP:A7, but because it is not, I am nominating it for deletion. Bbb23 (talk) 15:30, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Nori Bunasawa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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The article seems to have started out as draft created by 110347nbtough in November 2020, who subsequently seemed to claim they were Bunasawa himself over on Wikimedia Commons here and here. The draft was then approved by DN27ND about a month later, even though the DN27ND account was only four days old and seems to have no experience as an WP:AFC reviewer. Moreover, DN27ND is an WP:SPA whose primary focus on English Wikipedia, Wikimedia Commons and Japanese Wikipedia has been creating/editing content about Bunasawa; in other words, it seems that the account was specifically and only created for that purpose.
I wasn't sure about the subject's Wikipedia notablity per WP:BIO and asked about the article at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Martial arts#Nori Bunasawa. DN27ND was pinged into the discussion but never responded. It was then suggested on my user talk page that the article be nominated for deletion. I tried some more WP:BEFORE but found nothing resembling significant coverage. I also tried looking at the Japanese Wikipedia article ja:樗沢憲昭 and the Egyptian Arabic Wikiepdia article arz:نورى_بوناساوا but found nothing resembling significant coverage being cited in either of them. -- Marchjuly (talk) 12:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Keep Potential COI issues aside, the subject evidently seems to be a notable coach at Olympic and World Championship level, and for US colleges. Other pursuits as a magazine publisher/author and film consultant (?) would probably not rise to notability themselves, but the coverage for all three careers being mostly in 50+ year old newspapers – paired with the subject being otherwise covered by not only non-English, but non-Latin-alphabet, media – would be the AGF reason for fewer substantial sources (which is satisfactory here). The article could do with some clean-up, but from a glancing view I would also say it is not short on sources for its coverage, and that the coverage generally indicates notability. Kingsif (talk) 13:39, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
Collapsing a large amount of bludgeoning content from an editor now pblocked from the discussion (as well as a smaller number of replies from other editors to the bludgeoning). Daniel (talk) 06:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Keep The subject of the articles is notable as a US coach at the Olympic, World, and collegiate levels. He is also involved in the movie industry and has multiple credits. His The Toughest Man Who Ever Lived. Is in the process of being adapted into a motion picture.
- Citations on his coaching career
- Rezell, John (March 3, 1988). "Top Judo Instructor comes to the defense of self-defense". Orange County Register.
- "Judo". Orange Network. 385: 7. April 2023.
- New Judo Instructor at 'Y' Here". Indiana Evening Gazette. February 21, 1975
- "Instructor on Show". Rogers Daily News. April 1975.
- Citations & evidence on his involvement in the motion picture industry
- https://www.imdb.com/name/nm12094236/
- Bunasawa's involvement in "Dead or Alive"
- https://www.judoinside.com/judoka/90786/Noriaki_Bunasawa/judo-career
- José Padilha as the director on the BJJ-Judo movie project
- https://www.imdb.com/news/ni62362469/
- https://about.netflix.com/en/news/jos%C3%A9-padilha-attached-to-write-and-direct-feature-film-dead-or-alive-with-greg-silvermans-stampede-for-netflix
- https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/narcos-director-jose-padilha-tackling-netflix-jiu-jitsu-movie-dead-alive-1181926/
- DN27ND (talk) 23:34, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- I have added the following source assessment table for many of the additional sources cited above by DN27ND. It doesn't cover all of the sources DN27ND mentioned, but I'll keep searching online for links for those not in the table. I used Google translate for the one Russian source since I don't understand Russian, but am able to read the Japanese sources unassisted. The assessments are mine and I tried to give detailed explanations as to the reasons why I made them. The table's last column "Count source toward GNG?" is an assessment done by the table itself. An explanation of it's computed can be found at Template:Source assess#"Overall" assessment.
Source assessment table: prepared by User:Marchjuly
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Source | Independent? | Reliable? | Significant coverage? | Count source toward GNG? |
---|---|---|---|---|
https://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2016/may/12/ichiban-sports-complex-shares-strange-s/ | ![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
✘ No |
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=qNUDAAAAMBAJ&q=bunasawa&pg=PA38&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=bunasawa&f=false | ![]() |
![]() |
? Three of the four pages are photos of Bunsawa demonstrating some technique, but the first page is part interview and part biographical material. Not sure this qualifies as sigcov per se, but it seems enough of a RS to support some article content. The quoted parts of the article though probably need to be treated as WP:ABOUTSELF. | ? Unknown |
https://www.abebooks.com/9780964898424/Toughest-Man-Who-Lived-Nori-096489842X/plp#:~:text=A%20book%20about%20Conde%20Koma,force%20in%20the%20martial%20arts | ? AbeBooks page about the book Toughest Man Who Ever Lived. The paragraph on the book appears to be WP:UGC content | ? Could possibly be used to support Bunasawa co-writing the book | ![]() |
✘ No |
https://www.judoinside.com/judoka/90786/Noriaki_Bunasawa/judo-career | ? Has a fansite feel to it. | ? Niche website which looks like UGC content, but might be conisdered a RS for Judo. | ![]() |
✘ No |
https://www.instagram.com/p/Crg9KAmBek5/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D | ![]() |
? UGC and WP:SPS type of source that only could be used per WP:ABOUTSELF | ![]() |
✘ No |
https://www.imdb.com/news/ni62362469/ | ![]() |
? Original article is probably a good source for content about the movie, but there's nothing in the article about Bunasawa; so, trying to use this to support content about Bunasawa's involvement with the film seems to be WP:SYN. | ![]() |
✘ No |
https://about.netflix.com/en/news/jos%C3%A9-padilha-attached-to-write-and-direct-feature-film-dead-or-alive-with-greg-silvermans-stampede-for-netflix | ? Netflix PR blurb about film | ? Like the above source, might be for content about the film as WP:PRIMARY source, but makes no mention of Bunasawa. | ![]() |
✘ No |
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm12094236/ | ![]() |
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✘ No |
https://www.kinopoisk.ru/film/4294861/ | ? Russian language movie website | ? Looks to be similar to IMDb, and bascially just a cast/crew list for the 1990 film Martial Marshal (seems to also be called Judo Justice). Bunasawa isn't mentioned at all | ![]() |
✘ No |
https://en.kinorium.com/2680888/cast/ | ? Another movie database type site | ? Appear to be an IMDb type site. Bunasawa in listed by name in the "Cast" section as playing "Gonji Tamashita" but nothing more. | ? Not close to being sigcov | ? Unknown |
https://4kou.jp/news/434/ (link is to high school's alumni association's website which scanned and reposted the article. An April 2021 archived version of the article from the Asahi Shimbun website can be found here.) | ![]() |
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? There's more converage about Bunasawa in this particular article than there's is in perhaps many of the other sources mentioned above, but it doesn't seem to be sigcov. | ? Unknown |
https://www.judo-ch.jp/result/ajsc/men1970.shtml | ? Database-like site of judo competition results | ? Appears to be a UGC type of site, but might be considered reliable for articles about judo competitions。Bunsawa is mentioned by name once for finishing runner up in the light-weight class of a 1969 judo tournament in Fukuoka, Japan. | ![]() |
✘ No |
https://sputniknews.jp/20190902/6634165.html | ? August 2019 piece by Sputnik (news agency) | ![]() |
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✘ No |
https://www.ocjaa.org/orange-network | ![]() |
? This would appear to be UGC content with very little if any kind of rigorous editorial control. I don't think the OCJAA would knowingly post anything false, but they might not have the capability to the type of strenuous fact checking expected of a RS. It's certainly doesn't seem to be a major news publication; it doesn't even seem to be close to the level of the Rafu Shimpo. It's published in Japanese and its target audience is most likely Japanese-Americans, Japanese nationals or other Japanese speakers living/working in the area. The April 2023 issue in which the the article "Judo" is supposed to appear isn't available any longer on the OCJAA website, but the cover can be seen here. I tried to see if I could find an archived version of of the issue from an archived version of the main page like this one from June 2023 or this one from April 2024 and work backwards, but had no luck. | ? Hard to assess whether the article is sigcov, but from looking at some recent issues still available online like july 2024, June 2024, May 2024 and April 2024, the "magazine" appears to be mainly advertisements and event listing with a few stories/interviews thrown in. There's a good chance the "Judo" article was an part interview and part general interest piece that had some biographical information about Bunasawa but nothing resembling the sigcov to help establish Wikipedia notability. | ? Unknown |
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{source assess table}}. |
-- Marchjuly (talk) 03:07, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Lean delete per table above, unless it is updated with other sources. The COI is a contributing factor. DN27ND, please do not try to convince me otherwise of COI, you had several essays worth of space to do so and you have not yet. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 20:54, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
More bludgeoning (again, with a smaller number of brief contributions by others to said bludgeoning). Daniel (talk) 06:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Delete on the basis that this discussion [14] suggests that the subject doesn't meet WP:MANOTE. Also, the article was originally written by a user who has claimed on Commons to be the subject. User DN27ND is clearly closely associated with the subject, if they are not actually the subject, and at the very least is editing directly on behalf of the subject. His claims to be a journalist are clearly questionable, as journalists do not post the results of their work on Wikipedia. COI users, however, do. Axad12 (talk) 14.39, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete I appreciate the analysis done by Marchjuly. I had started to put together my own list, but he published first. I generally agree with his analysis. I didn't see anything that convinces me that there are multiple cases of significant independent coverage in reliable sources. Passing mentions, being named a judo instructor, martial arts rank, demonstrating techniques, and listings of results have never been considered sufficient to provide the coverage necessary to show WP notability. There is no evidence that he meets WP:SPORTBASIC which talks about having "success in a major international competition at the highest level." He didn't qualify for the Japanese team even though they were awarded two spots in each division. Being one of two team alternates in his division isn't enough, nor are high school or collegiate championships. I also don't see him meeting notability requirements as an author or actor. I would say he's a talented judoka, but that alone is not grounds for WP notability. Papaursa (talk) 16:15, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
Yet more bludgeoning along with a healthy dose of OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Daniel (talk) 06:25, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- DN27ND, I suggest you look at WP:OTHERSTUFF. The notability of other articles has no bearing on the WP notability of this article. If you feel those articles about about non-notable subjects, you are welcome to put them up for deletion. If the U.S. head coach at the 1972 Olympics isn't notable, why would the technical coach be notable? I would also caution you about WP:BLUDGEON. I mention these other guidelines because the fact you haven't contributed to any other articles means you might not be aware of other relevant policies and guidelines. You should be aware that open events mean they are open to all (hence the name). They are often different from national championships, especially in sports that can only accommodate a limited number of competitors. For example, this year's U.S. Open in chess has over 300 competitors, but the U.S. championship invites the highest ranked 10 Americans (according to world rankings). Papaursa (talk) 17:53, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
No prizes for guessing why this is being collapsed at this point. Daniel (talk) 06:25, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Comment/Question I've stopped trying to read through the avalanche of text by DN27ND. Am I wrong or are both of the keep votes from him? Papaursa (talk) 00:58, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- No, one is from Kingsif. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 03:33, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- Am I wrong to keep votes from you? You who believes IBJJF senior 2 divisions count as notable because they are international competitions DN27ND (talk) 22:34, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- No, one is from Kingsif. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 03:33, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- I hate to interrupt your monologue, but you might want to get your facts correct. I never said Cartmell was notable. My editing of his page was to remove 3000+ characters of text, as was agreed to at the AfD discussion. Any search of my edits would show I have frequently argued for removal of articles based on age group titles. Harping on 14 year old edits from a then new user shows how much you don't understand about how WP works. Papaursa (talk) 22:54, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- I've removed two entries from the source assessment table that were added by added by DN27ND, on the basis that the source assessment table above is clearly marked "prepared by User:Marchjuly" and so it is misleading to add source analysis that is not actually prepared by Marchjuly. DN27ND is free to re-add this analysis separately if it is clearly indicated with who it's coming from. DanCherek (talk) 01:41, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- There were users who wanted me to add to the table. I shouldnt have to do Marchjuly's homework, but ok I'll entertain him. I posted 2 of the relevant photographs of newspaper clippings rather than add those sources to his table list before its deletion, he choose to hide them before deletion. This is censorship of sourced information and of sources. DN27ND (talk) 03:15, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think it would be useful to have some input from Marchjuly and Papaursa on whether the two sources in the table below genuinely count towards satisfying WP:GNG. My understanding of previous comments in this thread is that references to someone having been a coach do not confer notability.
- Personally I'm very reluctant to take the word of an editor who has admitted to having approved a draft that they had themselves authored, in clear contravention of policy, and who seems to be very unfamiliar with broader policy here. Not to mention, of course, the fact that they have a conflict of interest but have yet to declare it on their user page. Axad12 (talk) 04:24, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with this. I think it's possible the subject of the article is notable, but the draft creation and approval process is so suspect that I don't think we should keep the article up. It sets a bad precedent. If someone really wants this article back, then they can recreate in future, without a COI and without this extreme belligerence. The conduct from DN27ND in this thread has been unacceptable. Throwing around accusations of censorship, walls of text, poor understanding of Wikipedia policy and refusal to learn the policy, refusal to adjust the POV language. It just keeps going.
- I already voted above, but we should delete the article. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 05:16, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- There were users who wanted me to add to the table. I shouldnt have to do Marchjuly's homework, but ok I'll entertain him. I posted 2 of the relevant photographs of newspaper clippings rather than add those sources to his table list before its deletion, he choose to hide them before deletion. This is censorship of sourced information and of sources. DN27ND (talk) 03:15, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
Collapsing per the inappropriate commentary and line of questioning. Daniel (talk) 06:30, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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As I posted above and in my edit summary, I "hid" the images per WP:TPG#Removing prohibited material because they were copyvios uploaded to Wikipedia Commons and were subsequently deleted as such by a Commons' administrator. DN27ND was advised not to do this, but went ahead and did so anyways. As I also posted above, I would've happily unhid the files if Commons would've kept them. DN27ND was also advised that they could post at c:COM:ANU#User:DN27ND and explain why the two uploads weren't copyvios. DN27ND can still request the undeletion of the files at c:COM:REFUND if they feel the files were wrongly deleted. If DN27ND thinks I censored them or otherwise did something else inappropriate by doing this, they're free to seek administrator assistance at WP:ANI; if hiding the files was wrong, an administrator will let me know and even possibly sanction me for it. A Wikipedia administrator can't restore the files, though, since they were uploaded to Commons (please don't misunderstand this as meaning it's OK to reupload them to locally to Wikipedia though) and need to restroed by a Commons administrator.
As for the source assessment table, DN27ND or anyone else re-assess the same sources I did or assess other yet-to-be assessed sources (with or without using a table), but it would be better to do so as their own separate post (maybe a brief assessment or table here on this AFD page and more further analysis on the AfD's talk page if needed my be a good idea). Others, however, really shouldn't be modifying my post to add their assessments to my table per WP:TPO because doing so makes it seems as if it's my assessment and not theirs; this is why DanCherek, who's a Wikipedia administrator, reverted DN27ND's edit to the table I created. If DN27ND feels DanCherek censored them by doing this, they're free to discuss things with Dan at User talk:DanCherek or seek other administrator assistance at WP:ANI. It's not a question of doing someone else's homework for them, but rather a question of misrepresenting what someone else has posted by modifying it in some way (i.e. putting your words into their mouth) without a really good Wikipedia policy based reason for doing so. If DN27ND and others mistakenly thought the table I created was for them to build on, then my apologies for not making it clear that it wasn't. Now, if anyone disagrees with my source analysis, they're of course free to post why; once again, though, they should do so in their own post and not insert their comments into the middle of one of mine. FWIW, I've added a signature to the post DN27ND made to create their source assessment table since it was missing one. I did this per WP:TPG#Attributing unsigned comments and didn't modify the post in any other way. If DN27ND wants to add some kind of introductory statement to the post, they can. They should also be able to expand the table with additional assessments if they want, but might want to follow WP:REDACT if they do, particularly if others have already commented on the assessments given in the table and posted below the table.
Finally, I've posted enough in this discussion already; others are more than capable of reading all that's been posted above (or what's yet to come) and making their own assessments regarding Bunasawa's Wikipedia notablity. DN27ND doesn't really need to convince me of this, but the WP:ONUS is on them to establish a WP:CONSENUS among others that Bunasawa is indeed Wikipedia notable. That's what the Wikipedia administrator who ultimately reviews the discussion will be looking for and assessing. I've no problem leaving things to that administrator and WP:CONSENUS. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:37, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- I meant to add this to my last post but forgot. A possible alternative to deletion might be to WP:DRAFTIFY so that it can continue to be worked on. I do think, however, that there should be a condition attached to this if that's what the consensus ends up being: the draft should be submitted for WP:AFC review and not moved back to the mainspace by either the article's creator, any other (new) account with an WP:APPARENTCOI, but might be able to skip AfC if assessed and moved by an account which is WP:AUTOPATROLLED or an established record of problem-free article creation. That's not a guarantee that the article won't or can't end up at AfD again, but it might address any COI concerns. -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:31, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- For why I advocate for deletion over draftify: I'm a bit uncomfortable with the likely COI's impact on the article's content. I think deleting would be cleaner.
- If we do draftify, I'd prefer if the reviewer be informed about the conditions under which the article was created, and that the POV language gets toned down before approval. 104.232.119.107 (talk) 08:12, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- I meant to add this to my last post but forgot. A possible alternative to deletion might be to WP:DRAFTIFY so that it can continue to be worked on. I do think, however, that there should be a condition attached to this if that's what the consensus ends up being: the draft should be submitted for WP:AFC review and not moved back to the mainspace by either the article's creator, any other (new) account with an WP:APPARENTCOI, but might be able to skip AfC if assessed and moved by an account which is WP:AUTOPATROLLED or an established record of problem-free article creation. That's not a guarantee that the article won't or can't end up at AfD again, but it might address any COI concerns. -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:31, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
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- After repeated warnings about bludgeoning, the user made 24 replies, interrupted by one reply from Axad12, in a row. A number of the replies alledge conspiracies and are accusations about having hidden agendas. A number of the replies are about my race: [15][16][17]. At what point does this stop being acceptable? 104.232.119.107 (talk) 01:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- An absolutely incredibly amount of bludgeoning which caused significant disruption to this deletion discussion. I have taken liberty to collapse a large amount of it. Daniel (talk) 06:28, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- After repeated warnings about bludgeoning, the user made 24 replies, interrupted by one reply from Axad12, in a row. A number of the replies alledge conspiracies and are accusations about having hidden agendas. A number of the replies are about my race: [15][16][17]. At what point does this stop being acceptable? 104.232.119.107 (talk) 01:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Source assessment table: prepared by User:DN27ND
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Source | Independent? | Reliable? | Significant coverage? | Count source toward GNG? |
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Fears, Randy (October 1975). "U.S. Judo team". Rogers Daily News. | ![]() |
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✔ Yes |
Rezell, John (March 3, 1988). "Top Judo Instructor comes to the defense of self-defense". Orange County Register | ![]() |
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✔ Yes |
"New Judo Instructor at 'Y' Here". Indiana Evening Gazette. February 21, 1975. | ![]() |
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✔ Yes |
"Instructor on Show". Rogers Daily News. April 1975. | ![]() |
![]() 1975 newspaper put out by the Rogers Daily News of Arkansas |
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✔ Yes |
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{source assess table}}. |
--— Preceding unsigned comment added by DN27ND (talk • contribs) 03:38, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
Section break 1
[edit]- Admin comment, I have p-blocked DN27ND Star Mississippi 01:49, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- And I have collapsed large portions of the bludgeoning that led to this pblock. I have also installed a section break to make it easier for new editors to contribute. Daniel (talk) 06:28, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: I am hesitant to relist this, but I do not think consensus has been reached yet (though we could be close). Could new comments please focus on the two source assessments provided?
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Malinaccier (talk) 14:51, 29 July 2024 (UTC)- The former of the two source assessment tables is based on online sources which can be checked. It is by an experienced contributor and indicates that GNG hasn't been met. That was also the opinion of three other contributors to this discussion.
- The latter of the two source assessment tables is based on sources that have only been seen by a contributor with an admitted COI. From their contributions above their understanding of Wikipedia policies is clearly faulty and I don't think their assessment of GNG can be given any credence.
- Now that the latter user has been blocked from contributing to this discussion I don't see how the rest of us are likely to be able to see the sources that they refer to. While that is unfortunate, the chances of those sources having satisfied GNG must surely be assessed as exceptionally low.
- Apart from the COI contributor, the only other contributor to vote KEEP did so on the basis that "from a glancing view I would also say [the article] is not short on sources", but no one disputes the quantity of the sources, the issue is the quality. Axad12 (talk) 15:49, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete Per Source analysis table, no WP:SIGCOV, thus WP:GNG not met. Lavalizard101 (talk) 15:41, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Has anyone looked at the offline(?) sources mentioned by the user trying to keep? BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:19, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- It would appear not, based on this resource request at WikiProject Resource Exchange [18]. Axad12 (talk) 19:35, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- As a follow-up to Marchjuly's post at the Resource Exchange, I'd be happy to share a full-text copy of the Orange County Register source via email with anyone who wants it. Just let me know! I don't have time to otherwise contribute to this AFD, so will leave that for others. DanCherek (talk) 22:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- I received an email from DanCherek about a 1988 Orange Country Register article by John Rezell titled "Top Judo Instructor comes to the defense of self-defense" a few days ago in response to my WP:RX request. However, I wasn't sure if it would be OK to post the link here; so, I asked about it at WP:AN#COPYLINK question. I did look at the article and did come up with my own assessment of it, but the reason I didn't add to my "source assessment table" above was because I don't think it really qualifies as significant coverage to establish Wikipedia notability on its own. It certainly has value as a reliable source in support of certain article content, and it is about Bunasawa; however, it's mainly about his involvement in teaching elementary school students judo with some quotes and a bit of background as well. To me it seemed like a nice local interest story but not really a strong claim for Wikipedia notability. Given the tenor of the discussion at that time and that the article's creator had provided their own assessment, I didn't want to add mine to the table until I could also add a link to the article; so, that others can see and assess it for themselves. I also didn't offer to email the link to anyone else because it didn't come from me and I didn't want to do so without checking with DanCherek first. I've been trying to find some of the other articles mentioned above online somewhere but haven't had much success. I don't have a membership to newspapers.com and their may be some stuff there. Finally, my assessments of this offline source and the other sources in my source assessment table are just my assessments. It should go without saying that others can freely check those links and disagree with my assessments if they feel the need to do so. Others are also free to get the link that I got from DanCherek, but there are issues posting it on Wikipedia that you should be aware. DanCherek will probably explain these to you if you ask. Finally, there are various newly created accounts posting which would be considered WP:ILIKEIT type "keep" !votes at Talk:Nori Bunasawa and Wikipedia talk:Articles for deletion/Nori Bunasawa. If someone wants to incoporate these !votes into this discussion, then please do. Since it appears that word of this AfD has probably been sent via text/email/social media/whatever to these other persons (I don't think their posts are a coincidence), it might also be a good idea to add {{Not a ballot}} to the top of this AfD. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:41, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comments on DN27ND's sources Stating facts does not make coverage significant. Nobody has disputed he was a US team coach, though being a technical coach is less than being the head coach. When even appearing at the event as a competitor isn't sufficient to show WP notability, it's clear that coaching is even less likely to show notability--especially when the teams he was coaching won no medals. Coaching the IUP collegiate team is even less of a notability indicator (see WP:NCOLLATH). That's why many MMA fighters have been deleted, nobody disputed the facts but fight coverage, results, and databases are not considered sufficient to show significant coverage. I hope I am now finished with this topic. Papaursa (talk) 22:54, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think I was able to find one of the sources mentioned above by DN27ND, but it's behind a paywall. Being behind a paywall doesn't mean it can't be used per WP:PAYWALL, but it does make it harder to verify.The source is as follows: "New Judo Instructor at 'Y' Here". Indiana Evening Gazette. February 21, 1975 – via NewspaperArchive.In addition, I was able to find some other stuff: this 2002 article in the Los Angeles Times is about Bunaswa being a local business owner representing a group involved in a zoning dispute with the City of Costa Mesa that mentions he owns Judo Journal; this is 2017 The Freeman article is about Bunaswa teaching a seminar in the Philippines and describes him as "legendary"; this describes Bunaswa being inducted into a "Masters Hall of Fame" in 2000; this is a 1996 The New York Times article quotes Bunaswa about the performance of the Japanese men's judo team at the 1996 Summer Olympics as refers to him as the publisher of Judo Journal; and this June 1977 issue of Black Belt magazine has a picture of Bunasawa and states he was a "former All-Japan Collegiate Judo Champion" as part of a larger article about someone or something else, If you Google Bunasawa, you'll get lots of hits to various YouTube videos and other stuff, but I'm not sure how much of it rises to the level generally needed per WP:SIGCOV and how much is just trivial stuff as defined by the Wikipedia community.Many of the sources mentioned above by DN27ND like Rogers Daily News, Orange County Register and Indiana Evening Gazette are newspapers per se, but they seem to be more local/county publications with limited subscription bases that cater specifically to their particular areas. They might do lots of features on local residents or local businesses just because that's part of the niche they're trying to carve out. Such sources don't immediately jump out (in my opinion) as being significnt coverage. Finally, I don't think a valid claim of notability for Bunasawa can be made per WP:NAUTHOR or WP:NACTOR
or WP:NCREATIVE; so, it seems everything is riding on whether he meets WP:NSPORTS or perhaps maybe maybe WP:ANYBIO. Promotional tone or COI related issuses should be able to be sorted out if the consensus is that Bunasawa clearly meets WP:BASIC; however, no amount of cleaning up will matter per WP:OVERCOME if the consensus is that he doesn't. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:48, 30 July 2024 (UTC); post edited. -- 11:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)- Many thanks for the sterling work above.
- I share your concerns about local newspapers. The journalists have a certain amount of space to fill and anything vaguely outside of the norm that they happen to hear about will get covered. Often the coverage ends up being because the subjects approached the papers concerned and nothing else happened that week. So, the fact that something was reported does not infer SIGCOV or notability.
- My vote is still for Delete. Axad12 (talk) 07:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think I might've of found another one of the sources mentioned above by DN27ND. It's referred to in the first collapsed section as being an article about one of Bunasawa's teen students using judo in self-defense against an assault. It's another one behind a paywall, but it's as follows: "Youth Says Judo 'Saved Life'". The Tustin News. May 27, 1982. p. 19 – via Newspapers.com. -- Marchjuly (talk) 11:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think I was able to find one of the sources mentioned above by DN27ND, but it's behind a paywall. Being behind a paywall doesn't mean it can't be used per WP:PAYWALL, but it does make it harder to verify.The source is as follows: "New Judo Instructor at 'Y' Here". Indiana Evening Gazette. February 21, 1975 – via NewspaperArchive.In addition, I was able to find some other stuff: this 2002 article in the Los Angeles Times is about Bunaswa being a local business owner representing a group involved in a zoning dispute with the City of Costa Mesa that mentions he owns Judo Journal; this is 2017 The Freeman article is about Bunaswa teaching a seminar in the Philippines and describes him as "legendary"; this describes Bunaswa being inducted into a "Masters Hall of Fame" in 2000; this is a 1996 The New York Times article quotes Bunaswa about the performance of the Japanese men's judo team at the 1996 Summer Olympics as refers to him as the publisher of Judo Journal; and this June 1977 issue of Black Belt magazine has a picture of Bunasawa and states he was a "former All-Japan Collegiate Judo Champion" as part of a larger article about someone or something else, If you Google Bunasawa, you'll get lots of hits to various YouTube videos and other stuff, but I'm not sure how much of it rises to the level generally needed per WP:SIGCOV and how much is just trivial stuff as defined by the Wikipedia community.Many of the sources mentioned above by DN27ND like Rogers Daily News, Orange County Register and Indiana Evening Gazette are newspapers per se, but they seem to be more local/county publications with limited subscription bases that cater specifically to their particular areas. They might do lots of features on local residents or local businesses just because that's part of the niche they're trying to carve out. Such sources don't immediately jump out (in my opinion) as being significnt coverage. Finally, I don't think a valid claim of notability for Bunasawa can be made per WP:NAUTHOR or WP:NACTOR
- Pukaar – Dil Se Dil Tak (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
I am neutral in this filing but feel a consensus is needed here than deleting the page and redirecting, given that this is an ongoing tv show which satisfies WP:TV. Also I don't find any issues with the current sources of this article, only thing is that more WP:RS sources should be added. Editingmylove (talk) 06:43, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete - With only 28 edits you may not be familiar with WP:NEWSORGINDIA which is what all of these references fall under. Nothing reliable to show notability. I would also say that a redirect wouldn't be a suitable WP:ATD based on the objection to it. --CNMall41 (talk) 07:02, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Television and India. CNMall41 (talk) 07:23, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect to List_of_programs_broadcast_by_Sony_Entertainment_Television#Current_broadcasts: Not opposed to keep, given existing coverage. A redirect is not only suitable but should always be considered when production, cast and broadcast are verifiable, which the said coverage clearly allows. If someone objected to the redirect, it is most likely because they wished a standalone page, not on principled opposition to keep history and allow further improvement or expansion here or on the target page. -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 09:28, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: not enough WP:SIGCOV for WP:GNG and does not meet the WP:NFILM criteria. (Also fine with a redirect) — Alien333 (what I did & why I did it wrong) 09:53, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: Adding a few references. I don't know if that helps WP:SIGCOV for WP:GNG. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilovetvshows (talk • contribs) 11:16, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: I was the one that created the plot tab for the show and added stuff to it. I usually just fix the plot or the cast section in TV shows so I am not completely aware of why the deletion might be happening. I would like an explanation and if there is anything I can do to stop the deletion? Whothatwhothatwhothstboi (talk) 16:31, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Pinging the relevent people @CNMall41 @Mushy Yank @Alien333 @Ilovetvshows. I think this conversation should be in the talk page Editingmylove (talk) 17:09, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks. @Whothatwhothatwhothstboi: you may vote if you think the page should be retained (see the template in the corner of the page: how to contribute and deletion process). Ilovetvshows may !vote too. Adding sources certainly can help unless other users consider them not reliable/not independent and maybe someone should explain why most sources have been said to fall under WP:NEWSORGINDIA when it does not concern websites or media that are considered generally unreliable (and that are simply not mentioned there), as, not only for newcomers, that might not be completely clear. The quantity of coverage added certainly means something, though. Bylined sources would be better, I guess. Maybe such as https://www.news18.com/entertainment/abhishek-nigam-is-part-of-sayli-salunkhes-pukaar-dil-se-dil-tak-8884431.html, which contains a paragraph that might pass for independent coverage. But I will leave it that as I don't wish to comment any further on the topic and maybe my !vote is clear enough (not opposed to keep- suggesting redirect as a useful compromise, alternative to deletion). -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 17:32, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Pinging the relevent people @CNMall41 @Mushy Yank @Alien333 @Ilovetvshows. I think this conversation should be in the talk page Editingmylove (talk) 17:09, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: Fails WP:SIGCOV Imsaneikigai (talk) 17:09, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting this discussion as there is opposition to Deletion although editors have not offered bolded Keep votes as they should. To the nominator, don't bring an article to AFD unless you are seeking a Deletion. Because that is often the outcome here.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 06:10, 22 July 2024 (UTC)- Liz, hello; you mean they have not offered bolded Keep, perhaps? -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 23:20, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, you are correct, I have changed my relisting statement. Liz Read! Talk! 07:40, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Liz, hello; you mean they have not offered bolded Keep, perhaps? -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 23:20, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Malinaccier (talk) 14:33, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- GoldMyne TV (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Non notable online TV that received only passing mentions in all sources referenced. The claim of winning award does not improve its notably because the award categories are clustered with other supposed winners. Other available sources not cited in the article only give passing mentions in reference to interviews conducted by the subject. But those do not count for notability. Ednabrenze (talk) 08:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Television, Entertainment, and Nigeria. Ednabrenze (talk) 08:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
Delete Another of my favorite constant topics which come up here often; Yet Another Non-Notable Nigerian YouTube Music Show®️. Nate • (chatter) 17:08, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: Per nomination. Most of the sources were nothing to write home about. Comr Melody Idoghor (talk) 18:19, 25 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: The Tv has been awarded 3 times by a notable award ceremony Legendarycharles (talk) 07:24, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: By virtue of the awards won. This is equal to awards won by some entertainment brands in the UK and US. And winning it three times definitely means NCREATIVE or GNG can be satisfied. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 00:00, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: This fully sourced award section is an evidence of notability. Best, Reading Beans 09:48, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- I also do not understand what the nominated meant by
The claim of winning award does not improve its notably because the award categories are clustered with other supposed winners.
because winning awards for three years is an evidence of notability. Best, Reading Beans 09:53, 29 July 2024 (UTC) Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: We may be nearing a consensus that these awards establish notability, but it would be useful if a few more voices could weigh in.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Malinaccier (talk) 14:32, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep Per keep !votes. Seem to narrowly pass GNG. Has also been established platform for local entertainment news. HandsomeBoy (talk) 22:32, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- List of Playboy Interviews (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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This list is very incomplete, and only includes interview subjects for some years in the twentieth century, and none in the twenty-first century. The only sources are the Playboy magazine archives in which the interview appeared, so that there is no independent sourcing to establish list notability.
- Draftify as nominator. This might be a useful list article when completed. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:38, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- The article has been expanded and is in the process of being completed. GimmeChoco44 (talk) 07:12, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Journalism, Popular culture, and United States of America. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:38, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. Page is under construction and other editors are welcome to help complete the list. The main Playboy article frames the value of the interview to the success of the magazine. The Playboy interview is known as one of the most thorough features delving into celebrity, politics, sports, and current affairs. Over the next few days, the list will be completed and additional sources will be added for notable interviews which have been quoted in other media. Let's give this some time to be built before deletion. GimmeChoco44 (talk) 06:56, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. The table is already well populated considering the task at hand and would only improve given more time to add content and additional references. The sources only being Playboy magazine archives in which the interview appeared makes good sense as the way to develop this article currently. Rockycape (talk) 09:13, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Lists of people and Lists. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 10:46, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment Incomplete is never a valid reason for deletion. Notability is though. I see The Rolling Stone Interview that mentions why the interview section is notable, then links to some interviews. Doesn't list all of them, which is odd, no selection criteria listed. Anyway, nothing else at Category:Interviews is like this. Are we going to list every magazine there is, and all the famous people they interviewed? Dream Focus 13:47, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- In the case of this magazine's interviews, several sources point out that the magazine's body of work has had the same cultural impact. Ref: (1) (2) (3). Other sources are cited in the article. GimmeChoco44 (talk) 07:11, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep I can see the great amount of work that @GimmeChoco44 has been doing. Dont see anuthing wrong here in temrs of notability either. Vorann Gencov (talk) 16:42, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- WP:HARDWORK applies. SpacedFarmer (talk) 20:16, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- “One accepted reason why a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources” – as presented here [19] and here [20]. Meets WP:CSC and WP:LSC. I think we should keep the list as it gives a broader understanding of the topic. Repurpose is also okay for me. Vorann Gencov (talk) 17:46, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- WP:HARDWORK applies. SpacedFarmer (talk) 20:16, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Indeed. Strong keep; HEY, WP:NLIST applies. If we start deleting incomplete lists or articles, then the whole thing can go straight to the bin.-My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 21:52, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This article has significantly changed since its AfD nomination. -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 21:55, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete. This is an insignificant list that doesn't merit an article but is probably a violation of WP:PROMO. desmay (talk) 23:01, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Disagree with "insignificant" -- the influence of the "Playboy interview" is documented by many sources (some are cited in the list article). In addition to the comprehensive content of the interviews, the breadth of subjects (world leaders, entertainers, businessmen, athletes) is often cited as a benchmark for periodical journalism, and the list provides an overview without undue burden on the main Playboy article. GimmeChoco44 (talk) 00:00, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete Unnecessary database. Some of these interviews didn't even happen and were mere copy-paste job. Azuredivay (talk) 06:55, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- That is a wild and unsupported claim. Not only did these interviews happen, but the proof exists in both printed and digital sources, and the interviews are referenced by major sources such as Los Angeles Times and Associated Press. GimmeChoco44 (talk) 07:06, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete. Another unnecessary list that serves nobody but the most ardent fans. Lists like this needs to be purged off the already bloated Wikipedia site to keep it from becoming the poor Fandom imitation it already is. SpacedFarmer (talk) 18:11, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- General comment: Since the essay about arguments to avoid was already cited, I will mention 2 other sections: Wikipedia:UNNECESSARY and WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Most opinions are more or less respectable but guidelines should prevail and WP:NLIST is the applicable guideline.-My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 23:13, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Please focus on whether the article meets WP:NLIST.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Malinaccier (talk) 14:30, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: It seems clear to me that the subject has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources which is all that WP:NLIST requires. Refering to the nomination: one might at first glance get the impression that it's all primary sourcing, but once you actually look at it, that isn't true at all. I think this issue could be sovled by either using WP:REFGROUP or this being one of those few edge cases where ext links are prefered in the article body. -- D'n'B-t -- 14:43, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete We've had inclusionists push in that we need to include every single episode of a television talk show's run (see The Ellen DeGeneres Show#Episodes, whose reads are in the >800 views range each; who is still actively reading these articles three years after it ended?), and we should not be extending that consensus to magazine interviews. We should not be doing a job a company should be doing for themselves. Nate • (chatter) 23:12, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think the difference between this list and the Ellen show is clear when looking at the amount of references by major media to the importance of the Playboy interview in popular culture. (Ex: Time, Billboard, Variety, CNN, among others) GimmeChoco44 (talk) 01:09, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: There are several citations cited in this article which support the notability of the Playboy interview. More examples will be added by other editors as the article continues to grow. The article fulfills the requirements of WP:NLIST in that it "has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources", with examples from publications such as AP News, Los Angeles Times, Billboard, Slate, CNN, and multiple others. GimmeChoco44 (talk) 02:08, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep It does meet the requirements, GimmeChoco44's references found prove that. Dream Focus 06:49, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Association of the Representatives of Bunyoro-Kitara (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Pure puffery for an organization that seems to largely only exist to grant honours to itself and others. Pure fantasy, and non-notable to boot.
I had prev. PROD-ed the following web of connected articles, but I'm also bundling them in this AfD because I nominated so many of them. They are all non-notable and pure advert for this fantasist "kingdom". They are:
- Royal Order of the Omujwaara Kondo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Royal Order of the Engabu (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Medal of Honor of ARKBK (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Hall of Fame of the Bunyoro-Kitara Kingdom (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Most Honourable Order of Omukama Chwa II Kabalega (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Greens vs. Blacks (talk) 14:19, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- In order to bundle the AfDs, you can replace the PRoD tags with {{subst:afd1|Association of the Representatives of Bunyoro-Kitara}} which will direct towards this discussion. -- D'n'B-t -- 14:30, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you! Just did that now. --Greens vs. Blacks (talk) 14:36, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Royalty and nobility-related deletion discussions. Greens vs. Blacks (talk) 14:36, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Uganda-related deletion discussions. Greens vs. Blacks (talk) 14:37, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. A traditional kingdom does much more than "grant honours to itself and others." Bunyoro and other traditional kingdoms such as Buganda continue to be an important part of Uganda's society and identity. The article on Bunyoro begins: Bunyoro, also called Bunyoro-Kitara, is a traditional Bantu kingdom in Western Uganda. It was one of the most powerful kingdoms in Central and East Africa from the 13th century to the 19th century. It is ruled by the King (Omukama) of Bunyoro-Kitara. The current ruler is Solomon Iguru I, the 27th Omukama. "Pure fantasy" is a really poor characterization of Bunyoro. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 14:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- I have not nominated Bunyoro for deletion. The recently-created internet honours mill is what I've nominated, which isn't a commentary on the history of Uganda or the history of the kingdom. I agree that Bunyoro exists; it's full of rich history. Conversely, these articles are not. Did you look at the sourcing on the articles above and looked to see if they meet SIGCOV, or follow the steps to check for sourcing when participating in an AfD? These articles are not notable. --Greens vs. Blacks (talk) 14:44, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Awards, Royalty and nobility, and Uganda. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 14:44, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: pending any third party sources at all, I don't see how this could meet WP:NORG. -- D'n'B-t -- 15:08, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. The orders are certainly notable. Not so sure about the others. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:24, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- @JoelleJay was much better at describing a thorough review of the sourcing below in a well thought out response. @Necrothesp, can you review the below, take a look at the sourcing, and weigh in? The AfD is not for the kingdom, or its history, but these newly created orders, for which I can find no sourcing. --Greens vs. Blacks (talk) 13:56, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- My opinion stands. I tend to think any honour established by a state, even if only a traditional one with no international standing, should be seen as notable. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:08, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- @JoelleJay was much better at describing a thorough review of the sourcing below in a well thought out response. @Necrothesp, can you review the below, take a look at the sourcing, and weigh in? The AfD is not for the kingdom, or its history, but these newly created orders, for which I can find no sourcing. --Greens vs. Blacks (talk) 13:56, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete. "Internet honours mill" is an apt way of putting it. No evidence that any of them or their associated orgs are notable; rather, this seems to be the wealthy inheritors of a defunct kingdom clinging to vestiges of aristocracy. I can't find any scholarly articles on "Order of (the) Engabu" or "Omujwaara Kondo/Abajwarakondo" -- zero legitimate hits through GS and wiki library, and nothing for the former even in the 282-page Anatomy of an African Kingdom: A History of Bunyoro-Kitara; surely the second-most prestigious order, allegedly established in 1700, would be discussed here? Like, in the chapter "The Regalia of Kitara", which details the Ekondo: ~50 specific kondos (crowns) that had been given to specific individuals (Abajwarakondo). In that regard, it does seem that Abajwarakondo is acknowledged as an order of distinction in the 1955 Agreement, but the "Order of Omujwaara Kondo" is a completely new "honor" invented in 2010 that bears little resemblance to the practice of bestowing unique, hand-made crowns to select subjects of the Omukama. 0% of the article describes the ancient rite, which included some interesting dietary restrictions (no beans, potatoes, or other vegetables!) recipients must adhere to on threat of beheading; it is entirely on the new order, and sourced to SPS and websites administered by Bunyoro-Kitara.org. I do think an article on Abajwarakondo could be warranted, but it would have to be written from scratch as nothing here is worth merging. I'll also note that the Engabu honor is sourced to the "royal decree" issued by the defunct kingdom in 2010 and hosted on SkibDen.dk (an SPS on Danish medals that happens to share its name with the articles' creator). JoelleJay (talk) 01:26, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Lionel Elika Fatupaito (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Boxing coach who tragically passed away at the Olympics. Article created after death and I cannot find any useful sources on him apart from news stories about his death. Black Kite (talk) 14:03, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: This seems to be a case of WP:ONEEVENT. Perhaps worth of a mention in the article about Plodzicki-Faoagali| when discussing his olympic performance, which no doubt this will have cast a shadow over. -- D'n'B-t -- 14:21, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Merge to Samoa at the 2024 Summer Olympics#Boxing for WP:ATD. SpacedFarmer (talk) 17:17, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Merge to Samoa at the 2024 Summer Olympics#Boxing - Agree. He was part of the delegation, and will have had his share in the Olympic boxing scene, too. Royalrec (talk) 14:24, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Boxing, Olympics, and Oceania. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 18:15, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Bounce Back Technologies (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Unremarkable IT consultancy, fails WP:CORP, no significant coverage from reliable sources found in a WP:BEFORE search. Referenced only by a press release posted to two websites. Borderline speedy WP:A7. Wikishovel (talk) 13:43, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Companies, Computing, and United Arab Emirates. Wikishovel (talk) 13:43, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete: "offers technology solutions " is so vague, pretty much any product could be described that way - there doesn't appear to be anything to say about this company. Only given sources are press releases. -- D'n'B-t -- 14:15, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Jacob Björnström (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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sportsperson stub. fails general notability guideline. ltbdl (talk) 13:33, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- What Finnish newspaper archives have you searched for coverage of this offline-era Olympic medalist? BeanieFan11 (talk) 13:38, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Olympics and Finland. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 18:14, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Datacopia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I'm unable to find any independent coverage to indicate that either WP:CORP or WP:NSOFTWARE can be satisfied. SmartSE (talk) 11:52, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Petra Taušová (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Redirect to List of Czech Republic women's international footballers as ATD because I could not find any in-depth coverage of her to meet WP:GNG. The only secondary sources I found were Deník and iDNES (2004, 2011) – none of which cover Taušová in-depth. ⋆。˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚。⋆ 11:29, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Women, Football, and Czech Republic. ⋆。˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚。⋆ 11:29, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. GiantSnowman 16:18, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Redirect as above. GiantSnowman 16:22, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Palawan National School (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Marked as needing sources since 2021. Almost completely unsourced, and the one source provided is WP:PRIMARY to document the mission of the school. Summarizes the routine activities of the school. 331dot (talk) 11:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Beverley town fair (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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This article appears to be about a livestock market that has changed date and location a few times. I was able to find a reference to medieval Saturday markets, but that 1. doesn't support the implied claim of continuity 2. still wouldn't be a claim of notability since most medium sized towns have markets of one form or another.
Looking at a current list of What's on in Beverley, there's nothing with this exact name. It's clearly the case that there are and were several markets, fairs, festivals and other community events in Beverley - searching online brings up results for the Festival of Christmas, Beverley Puppet Fest before any mention of a livestock fair - none individually notable enough for a Wikipedia article.
I would redirect to Beverley#Culture and amenities. As the article is currently entirely unsourced, I don't believe there's anything that needs merging or preserving. -- D'n'B-t -- 10:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- List of Doctor Who villains (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Wikipedia is not a directory. Purposeless list of often one-story characters from Doctor Who, with next to no attempt at secondary sourcing or justification of the notability of the group. U-Mos (talk) 08:50, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Fictional elements, Science fiction and fantasy, Television, and Lists. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 10:41, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete/Redirect per nom. WP:BEFORE can't WP:VERIFY most of the contents here. There are some sources for individual notable characters, but these are already covered better at their character articles. Sometimes a single character list is fine for navigation and context (which is the case for List of Doctor Who characters), per WP:ATD. But the premise for this list is flawed, and contains far too much unverifiable content for an additional list. Shooterwalker (talk) 13:38, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Shooterwalker: I expect more or less everything here can be WP:VERIFYed by primary sources, but on what basis did come to the conclusion that most of the contents cannot be verified by secondary sources? Daranios (talk) 15:19, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep I do see the issues with list, but as the topic clearly seems notable based on the secondary sources a WP:BEFORE search brings up, those issues all can be solved through normal editing are therefore not grounds for deletion: As for the purpose, this list can gather links to the Doctor Who villains notable in their own right for navigation, and collect a balanced amount of relevant information on characters who are not notable in their own right, in accordance with WP:CSC and the result of the earlier discussions (although these are quite old). Lacking references can be added from the existing secondary sources (and probably trimming some entries). As for justification and Wikipedia is not a directory, inclusion criteria can and should be phrased. And while tags are admittedly often not very effective, one month is a bit short for see if someone else would like to tackle the problem before bringing things to a deletion discussion. And AfD is not cleanup. And as always, if you see an issue, always consider to Fix it yourself instead of just talking about it. All that said, I have no objection against a merge to List of Doctor Who characters, if a majority thinks this is the better way of presenting things for editorial reasons. A renaming away from List of Doctor Who supporting characters might then be in order, though. Daranios (talk) 15:20, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'll confess I didn't look at List of Doctor Who supporting characters before nominating - one thing at a time - but now I have, that too is hard to justify. What doesn't duplicate List of Doctor Who cast members and/or Companion (Doctor Who) is in-universe trivia. We can of course talk about adding in secondary material, but when there's nothing worth keeping at the present moment aren't we in WP:STARTOVER territory? And why is it worth preserving this structure when an alternative exists concurrently, and is far better maintained? U-Mos (talk) 16:04, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - The List of Doctor Who supporting characters would likely be the best Redirect/Merge target, as I did notice that the small handful of entries here that were not just one-shot Monster-of-the-Week type characters and were reoccurring characters linking to their own articles are also all listed on that page already. Rorshacma (talk) 16:51, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Now I was not at this point aware of List of Doctor Who cast members. I do not much care under what heading the information is presented, and if List of Doctor Who cast members and List of Doctor Who supporting characters should be merged, but the current format of List of Doctor Who cast members does not allow for adding additional information/commentary on characters without major overhaul. List of Doctor Who supporting characters does. With regard to Pokelego999's opinion, I do believe that the concept of "Villains" in Doctor Who is notable based on sources like The Humanism of Doctor Who. But if they should be presented separately or not is an editorial decision. I do not think that this is a case of WP:TNT, because while we are currently lacking secondary sources, I believe that most entries in the list will have such secondary sources. I have arbitrarily chosen to look for Axos and Helen A, I have right away found sources for both. In general I have made the experience that such a collected list, in a bad shape as it is, is a good starting point if one seriously wants to improve things. So I believe preserving it in one form or another is best. If someone performed a search for secondary sources on any specific character and came up empty, then that one can be removed. Daranios (talk) 10:06, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- The first is a review, the second is from an unreliable source, and the third mentions Helen A once. Additionally, notability must be established with the group being a notable group of subjects, not by individual members having small amounts of coverage. The book source you've linked above is honestly pretty solid, but admittedly my main concern is with the overlap with the main characters list even if other sources are found. List of Doctor Who universe creatures and aliens has a lot of entries, but that's mostly alright because the list itself doesn't really have much viable overlap. The villains list is a majority of one offs who tend to fall into a supporting character role, or fall into the aliens list itself. There's some notable entities in there in terms of the series, but most of these could probably be included in the supporting characters list, with a subsection related to villain reception inside the article. The list obviously needs some work before that can happen, but it's 100% a feasible outcome with some editing that I'm fine with doing myself. I just don't see as visible a need for separation here. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 19:49, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Now I was not at this point aware of List of Doctor Who cast members. I do not much care under what heading the information is presented, and if List of Doctor Who cast members and List of Doctor Who supporting characters should be merged, but the current format of List of Doctor Who cast members does not allow for adding additional information/commentary on characters without major overhaul. List of Doctor Who supporting characters does. With regard to Pokelego999's opinion, I do believe that the concept of "Villains" in Doctor Who is notable based on sources like The Humanism of Doctor Who. But if they should be presented separately or not is an editorial decision. I do not think that this is a case of WP:TNT, because while we are currently lacking secondary sources, I believe that most entries in the list will have such secondary sources. I have arbitrarily chosen to look for Axos and Helen A, I have right away found sources for both. In general I have made the experience that such a collected list, in a bad shape as it is, is a good starting point if one seriously wants to improve things. So I believe preserving it in one form or another is best. If someone performed a search for secondary sources on any specific character and came up empty, then that one can be removed. Daranios (talk) 10:06, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'll confess I didn't look at List of Doctor Who supporting characters before nominating - one thing at a time - but now I have, that too is hard to justify. What doesn't duplicate List of Doctor Who cast members and/or Companion (Doctor Who) is in-universe trivia. We can of course talk about adding in secondary material, but when there's nothing worth keeping at the present moment aren't we in WP:STARTOVER territory? And why is it worth preserving this structure when an alternative exists concurrently, and is far better maintained? U-Mos (talk) 16:04, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete/Redirect per nom, whatever works best. I've meaning to take action on this list for some time, and was planning to start a merge discussion once I finished my work at List of Doctor Who universe creatures and aliens. Most of the characters in here are one-offs easily redirectable to their target article, as I don't believe the concept of "Villains" is really independently notable from the main character list. The main character list is, for all intents and purposes, complete shit, and was on my to-do list for a rewrite. I do plan to work on the list eventually and improve it, but I believe the recurring villains can be safely merged to the main list while one offs can be redirected to their parent article. I'd be happy to handle individual character redirects should this article be merged, redirected, or what have you. Should the supporting characters list be decided as the target, I'd be fine with shifting my priorities to rewriting the character list to be actually useful if editors feel that would more greatly beneficial than doing the aliens list, as I already have a draft started in my userspace for a rewrite, because per nom, that list is very much in Wikipedia:STARTOVER territory. In any case, I see no reason this article should exist, and if sources spring up to determine separate notability, the Villains list would require a complete rewrite akin to the aliens list. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 18:32, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. Fitting for Fandom at best. Lists like this needs to be purged off the already bloated Wikipedia site to keep it from becoming the poor Fandom imitation it already is. SpacedFarmer (talk) 23:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Suhka (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Former village in Estonia. No backlinks. Estopedist1 (talk) 08:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Geography and Estonia. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 10:41, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- comment This is in fact the Suhka Tourist Farm (the coords are slightly off, which is common for GNS). No idea whether there was more a village back when, and I leave notability to others. In the US this probably wouldn't pass WP:NCORP. Mangoe (talk) 16:25, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete. Former (tiny) village, disestablished in 1997 and reestablished as two populated villages (Ala-Suhka and Mäe-Suhka). Very few sources for much information on the former village. Although WP:NPLACE states that even abandoned places "can be notable": Geographic Names Information System and the GEOnet Names Server do not satisfy the "legal recognition" requirement and are also unreliable for "populated place" designation. Fails any sort of WP: GNG IMO. ExRat (talk) 10:53, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Speedy Keep. (non-admin closure) TarnishedPathtalk 11:07, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Villawood railway station (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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8 out of 9 of the references (one of the items listed as a reference out of 10 is not a reference, but a note) are primary sources. The remaining source does not provide WP:SIGCOV. In a WP:BEFORE I found a lot of hits with passing mentions but nothing with SIGCOV. TarnishedPathtalk 07:47, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Transportation and Australia. TarnishedPathtalk 07:47, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: I've found some more sources from the National Library's archive of printed newspapers in regards to roughly the time period in which the station was built: 1954 The Biz article, 1929 The Biz article, 1955 The Broadcaster article, 1928 Sydney Morning Herald article. Fork99 (talk) 08:56, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep. Satisfies WP:GNG. I would also note that it is locally heritage listed, which clearly contributes to its notability. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:20, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Necrothesp, WP:NBUILD states that
Buildings, including private residences, transportation facilities and commercial developments, may be notable as a result of their historic, social, economic, or architectural importance, but they require significant in-depth coverage by reliable, third-party sources to establish notability
. However, I've not been able to find any significant in-depth coverage. Even the sources that @Fork99 dug up don't demonstrate WP:SIGCOV. If any source are provided demonstrating SIGCOV, in reliable, third-party sources, I would happily withdraw this. TarnishedPathtalk 10:39, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Necrothesp, WP:NBUILD states that
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- Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Stations-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 10:21, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: The station is heritage-listed. We normally keep buildings on the National Register of Historic Places in the United States and its counterparts in other countries. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 14:28, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not especially familiar with Australian heritage listing, but I think this is locally listed rather than on the national or even state register (although I'm happy to be proved wrong on this). However, it clearly contributes to notability. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:38, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Necrothesp: The link above is for the NSW State Heritage Inventory, so it is state-listed by the NSW Government. Fork99 (talk) 19:15, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Not so sure this is the case, as it says "Fairfield Local Environment Plan". The State Heritage Inventory appears to include sites that are locally listed as well as those that are state listed. -- Necrothesp (talk) 07:23, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Necrothesp: The link above is for the NSW State Heritage Inventory, so it is state-listed by the NSW Government. Fork99 (talk) 19:15, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not especially familiar with Australian heritage listing, but I think this is locally listed rather than on the national or even state register (although I'm happy to be proved wrong on this). However, it clearly contributes to notability. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:38, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep per all above. Please nominate more carefully! Every debate is time people do not spend in the article space. gidonb (talk) 20:36, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Agree, KEEP. History is vital; WP enhances the vitality. Left Central (talk) 21:36, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Given the above discussion I'm going to withdraw this nomination, closing as Speedy Keep. I was aware of the heritage listing, but didn't think it was enough for notability given how easy it can be for ALL buildings which fall into specific architectural styles (e.g. Brutalist, see here for an example) to find themselves with heritage listings in some places in Australia. The above discussion demonstrates a consensus which indicates that I was incorrect. TarnishedPathtalk 11:06, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Ricky Kling (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Fails WP:SPORTSCRIT, almost all primary sources provided. The one independent source is a 1 line mention of this person. LibStar (talk) 07:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Keep As a national U21 champion, pass criteria 4 of WP:NMOTORSPORT. SpacedFarmer (talk) 15:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Push Interactions (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Fails the notability guideline for companies. Previous AfD was reference bombed by the founder, who did not disclose his conflict of interest. – Teratix ₵ 07:21, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Delete: Sources are mostly from some financial group. No RSes I could find. Aaron Liu (talk) 15:06, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete I couldn't find any independent reliable sources. Felicia (talk) 19:14, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Alexis Tomassian (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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nonnotable voice actor - Altenmann >talk 03:43, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Comment: I'm trying to evaluate WP:ENT, but Alexis Tomassian § Filmography is pretty misleading; for instance, Tomassian did not voice Zuko in A:TLA, but rather in its French dub. The best I can find so far is voicing the main characters of Martin Mystery and The Podcats, and the latter's notability is questionable. jlwoodwa (talk) 06:17, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- He also voiced Samson in Calamity, a Childhood of Martha Jane Cannary; he's listed as the third star, and a review describes Samson as the plot's
initial catalyst
. That looks like asignificant role
to me. jlwoodwa (talk) 18:38, 29 July 2024 (UTC)- Not a significant coverage of Tomassian. In fact, not a mum about him. Notability not inherited - Altenmann >talk 18:43, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'll paraphrase the part of WP:ENT that applies here:
An actor or voice actor may be considered notable if they have had significant roles in multiple notable films or television shows.
That's from a subject-specific notability guideline. "Significant coverage" has nothing to do with that – it's only in WP:GNG. I also don't see your point with WP:INHERIT – that section names SNGs as a case where notability can be inherited. jlwoodwa (talk) 22:05, 29 July 2024 (UTC)- I see, thanks for clarification. Still, I fail to see "initial catalyst" is "significant role": Samson is covered in a single sentence. If a role is significant, surely it deserves more than that. About INHERIT, thanks again, I stand corrected. - Altenmann >talk 22:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- The review's pretty sparse on plot in general, and Samson's one sentence is more than any other (non-main) character gets. Calamity, a Childhood of Martha Jane Cannary § Plot goes into more detail, and he's mentioned in 9 sentences there (mostly as "the soldier", but that's unambiguous). jlwoodwa (talk) 23:08, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry to be obnoxious, but one needs an independent source that describes character's role as "significant" or similar, otherwise it is Wikipedian's opinion/original research. In the case of Calamity, I inclined to believe, because imdb say "starring Salomé Boulven Alexandra Lamy Alexis Tomassian", implying these are major roles, but unfortunately imdb is not a valid ref for wikipedia. OK. I'm done being obnoxious here. :-) - Altenmann >talk 23:41, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that notability needs to be based on reliable sources, but we're never going to get a reliable source to directly support a claim that "this subject is wikinotable". That's probably why WP:NOR's lead says it doesn't apply to deletion discussions. jlwoodwa (talk) 06:28, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Red herring. Strawman. Muddy waters. Don't give it to me. We need a source which supports our requirement for notability. In this case we need sources which imply that the actor had "significant roles in multiple notable films or television shows". And this must acceptable for the article, not for AfD bickering. - Altenmann >talk 07:43, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- What are you talking about? It's not a red herring. WP:NOR literally states that
This policy does not apply to talk pages and other pages which evaluate article content and sources, such as deletion discussions or policy noticeboards.
Can you explain why you thinkwe need
those particular sources, given that WP:NOR does not apply? jlwoodwa (talk) 09:02, 30 July 2024 (UTC)- Nonsense. You cannot base article content on non-reliable sources. Just the same, you cannot judge subject notability basing on self-published sources. Are you seriously telling me that if actor's mom says that her boy is the greatest actor, then we write a Wikipedia article about him? AfD discussions routinely judge sources, and WP:NOR has nothing to do with this. - Altenmann >talk 16:21, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- I am not telling you that. I don't know why you'd think I'm telling you that. As I said before,
I agree that notability needs to be based on reliable sources.
I'm only objecting to your statement thatone needs an independent source that describes character's role as "significant" or similar, otherwise it is Wikipedian's opinion/original research.
jlwoodwa (talk) 19:47, 30 July 2024 (UTC)- I am not objecting that a certain degree of "original research" is necessary in AfD discussions: of course, judging sources is kinda "original research", but this kind of Wikipedian's opinion about sources is everywhere in Wikipedia, and it is not really original research. I see we are in the same page here, so never mind. - Altenmann >talk 20:13, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- I am not telling you that. I don't know why you'd think I'm telling you that. As I said before,
- Nonsense. You cannot base article content on non-reliable sources. Just the same, you cannot judge subject notability basing on self-published sources. Are you seriously telling me that if actor's mom says that her boy is the greatest actor, then we write a Wikipedia article about him? AfD discussions routinely judge sources, and WP:NOR has nothing to do with this. - Altenmann >talk 16:21, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- What are you talking about? It's not a red herring. WP:NOR literally states that
- Red herring. Strawman. Muddy waters. Don't give it to me. We need a source which supports our requirement for notability. In this case we need sources which imply that the actor had "significant roles in multiple notable films or television shows". And this must acceptable for the article, not for AfD bickering. - Altenmann >talk 07:43, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- I agree that notability needs to be based on reliable sources, but we're never going to get a reliable source to directly support a claim that "this subject is wikinotable". That's probably why WP:NOR's lead says it doesn't apply to deletion discussions. jlwoodwa (talk) 06:28, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry to be obnoxious, but one needs an independent source that describes character's role as "significant" or similar, otherwise it is Wikipedian's opinion/original research. In the case of Calamity, I inclined to believe, because imdb say "starring Salomé Boulven Alexandra Lamy Alexis Tomassian", implying these are major roles, but unfortunately imdb is not a valid ref for wikipedia. OK. I'm done being obnoxious here. :-) - Altenmann >talk 23:41, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- The review's pretty sparse on plot in general, and Samson's one sentence is more than any other (non-main) character gets. Calamity, a Childhood of Martha Jane Cannary § Plot goes into more detail, and he's mentioned in 9 sentences there (mostly as "the soldier", but that's unambiguous). jlwoodwa (talk) 23:08, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- I see, thanks for clarification. Still, I fail to see "initial catalyst" is "significant role": Samson is covered in a single sentence. If a role is significant, surely it deserves more than that. About INHERIT, thanks again, I stand corrected. - Altenmann >talk 22:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'll paraphrase the part of WP:ENT that applies here:
- Not a significant coverage of Tomassian. In fact, not a mum about him. Notability not inherited - Altenmann >talk 18:43, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks to Donaldd23's improvements, Zombillenium now looks notable, and a review describes Steven (Tomassian's character) for three sentences. jlwoodwa (talk) 23:29, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- He also voiced Samson in Calamity, a Childhood of Martha Jane Cannary; he's listed as the third star, and a review describes Samson as the plot's
- Philippines women's national under-18 softball team (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Subject lacks the needed WP:SIGCOV to meet the WP:GNG or WP:NTEAM. Let'srun (talk) 02:27, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Delete per nom Traumnovelle (talk) 05:26, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Botswana women's national under-18 softball team (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Subject lacks the needed WP:SIGCOV from independent sources to meet the WP:GNG and WP:NTEAM. Let'srun (talk) 02:26, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Delete per nom Traumnovelle (talk) 05:26, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- AUBEA (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Does not appear to meet WP:NCORP. Clovermoss🍀 (talk) 01:08, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Delete Only primary sources provided. I also searched under full name "Australasian Universities Building Education Association", and only got a primary source. Fails WP:ORG. LibStar (talk) 01:19, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Speedy delete: as A7. Completely fails NCORP. No credible claim of significance. C F A 💬 02:11, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete per above. Traumnovelle (talk) 05:26, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete per nom, LibStar. Cabrils (talk) 12:12, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Widescreen Mode (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Non-notable band. --Viennese Waltz 11:51, 14 July 2024 (UTC)
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- Keep: If it's notable enough for Finnish Wikipedia, it's notable enough for the English one. Matter of fact, the Finnish article has sources that can be ported with proper translations to the English article. That Article Editing Guy (talk) 22:04, 20 July 2024 (UTC)
- That is not how the English Wikipedia's notability guidelines work. Regardless, I don't think the sources on the Finnish page demonstrate notability per WP:GNG: one is a press release, three of them are links to music charts, and the last is the band's Facebook page. However, they may qualify through WP:MUSICBIO, criterion 2. ArcticSeeress (talk) 18:25, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
- Keep: There are sources in the corresponding Finnish Wikipedia denoting notability which can be used to expand the article. Requires work though, but certainly not unnotable. The Herald (Benison) (talk) 12:33, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Star Mississippi 16:21, 21 July 2024 (UTC)Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Additional discussion regarding how coverage in specific sources contribute towards notability would be helpful in attaining a consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Red-tailed hawk (nest) 00:24, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete I'm not sure what the above voters are referring to on the Finnish article. There are 5 sources, all of which don't count towards notability. I've included one additional source (blabbermouth.net) I managed to find below:
- Even if we count blabbermouth.net as significant coverage, that is only one source that counts towards GNG. Yes, they could meet WP:NBAND because they charted on Finland's national chart, but there isn't enough coverage in reliable sources to write an article. At the moment, most of the article is unsourced original research. Charting does not mean a band is inherently notable or has to be kept; it just means there is usually enough coverage to write an article. C F A 💬 02:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Delete per this. Ping me if something changes but these sources do not appear to contribute towards enough GNG for an article. Traumnovelle (talk) 05:28, 29 July 2024 (UTC)