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Will someone please look at this article and this draft and verify which is the accepted name for this genus and species? It appears that Neopanax is correct, but will someone please check? The draft, although probably misnamed, has more information than the article, so that the article should be expanded with information from the draft.
Robert McClenon (talk) 05:14, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Robert McClenon, I had a quick glance at POWO, and it lists Neopanax colensoi as an accepted name. If the draft creator does not respond or merge the information within a week I will copy the information over. Sound reasonable? Once that is done the draft could make a perfectly reasonable redirect to preserve the history. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 05:58, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like Pseudopanax colensoi might be the newer name. POWO has Neopanax colensoi (Hook.f.) Allan as the accepted name (after Allan ((1961). Fl. New Zealand 1: 434) and Pseudopanax colensoi (Hook.f.) K.Koch as the synonym (after Frodin, D.G. & Govaerts, R. (2003 publ. 2004). World Checklist and Bibliography of Araliaceae: 1-444). The IUCN recognises Pseudopanax colensoi (formerly as Neopanax colensoi) and gives "(Hook.f.) Philipson" as the authority in the taxonomy section, citing the New Zealand Plant Conservation Network (2023) as the taxonomic source, which suggests they have changed the taxonomy since the 2018 assessment. The citation[1] still uses Neopanax colensoi. I can't immediately find the date of Philipson's revision. As POWO synonymises Pseudopanax colensoi (Hook.f.) K.Koch rather than Pseudopanax colensoi (Hook.f.) Philipson, could this be a case where POWO should be asked for clarification? — Jts1882 | talk06:57, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This 2009 article still seems to reflect the situation: Neopanax had long been synonymised, and has then been resurrected by two (sets of) authors in the early 2000's. Since then, other authors have resynonymised it. It is probably one of the cases where it is just a judgement call, since the genera seem to be monophyletic both separately and together, and it could well be that there is not yet clear consensus among the researchers working in this group. POWO presumably followed the authors of the early 2000s and now prefers to err on the side of their status quo until clearer consensus has emerged. Felix QW (talk) 16:34, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As stated above IPNI says the Koch name is a nom. inval. Biodiversity Heritage Library doesn't have the publication but a German university website does. The combination in Pseudopanax was validated by Philipson in 1965. I have yet to decode the German to attempt to ascertain why Koch's publication is considered a nom. inval.
Thanks for digging up the Koch publication. I checked BHL and didn't search further when BHL didn't have it. The relevant bit (translated by Google) is "The 3 New Zealand Panax species described by the younger Hooker: lineare, Edgerleyi and Colensoi are doubtfully found here and differ in a smaller number of non-fused styles. This also applies to P. Gunnii Hook. fil. from Van Diemen's Land."
"found here" in context is the genus Pseudopanax. Doubtful assignments aren't valid publications of a new combination as I understand it. However, IPNI/POWO have records for Pseudopanax linearis and Pseudopanax edgerleyi with authorship attributed to Koch, and no notes about them being invalid.
Philipson does claim to be publishing a new combination for Pseudopanax gunnii. IPNI has three records for P. gunnii, with authorship given as "(Hook.f.) K.Koch", "K.Koch" and "(Hook.f.) Philipson". The only one with a corresponding POWO record is the "K.Koch" one, but POWO gives the authorship for that as "(Hook.f.) K.Koch"
That seems a valid reason for the Koch combination is invalid. (I was wondering whether even the laxer requirements of the time were met, but failing to state the species belongs to the genus would trump that.) Will you be dropping a note to IPNI about the other combinations? Lavateraguy (talk) 23:18, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't planning on contacting IPNI. Would you like to? I suppose I could, but in the past I've relied on Peter coxhead to alert Kew to problems we've found in their databases. Plantdrew (talk) 01:56, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On the original question, while Pseudopanax and Neopanax are both monophyletic, they may be jointly paraphyletic with respect to Plerandra (Melanesian Schleferra clade - Schleffera pro parte and assorted previous segregate genera) and Meryta. I haven't managed to find a newer paper resolving this question. I think we should follow POWO and use the name Neopanax colensoi. Lavateraguy (talk) 12:13, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like there are two philosophical approaches. If Neopanax is recognised both are monophyletic, regardless of the exact relationships between them and those other genera. Perrie & Shepherd (2009) take the view that there isn't unequivoval evidence that Pseudopanax is monophyletic or that it is not monophyletic, so leave the status quo. Given we generally follow POWO for page titles and taxoboxes that seems appropriate.
Regardless of if stays at Neopanax or gets moved I hope they do add the information to the article because I would like to see them get credit for the editing. It is a small thing, but they did a good job on their draft. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 22:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This has been rolling along for a while, but the vote happens this week (see the recent Nature story) there are two main proposals that are being voted on:
1. Replacing "caffra"-related names (which are etymologically related to an ethnic slur) to derivatives of "afr" (affects around 218 species)
2. A proposal to "create a committee to reconsider offensive and culturally inappropriate names."
As I've noted at the TOL discussion, the first proposal has passed [1], so the relevant Wikipedia articles will need to be changed at some point. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:07, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. I'll check back periodically on POWO and WFO to see if they end up following this. Reading the article it will come into effect in 2026, so there will be some time before this is implemented. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 00:42, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These probably can be mentioned on the relevant articles even though the articles won’t be moved yet. Even if the name changes aren’t accepted by the wider community, it still is relevant information. awkwafaba (📥) 03:14, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My understanding is that the 2026 date applies to newly published names being subject to veto by a sensitivity committee. There is scope for interpretation in Nature's reporting, but I expect that the "caffra"-related changes come into force on publication of the new code (i.e. at the end of the conference). I expect that IPNI and POWO will make the changes in short order. Lavateraguy (talk) 09:31, 19 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
People are already starting to make changes to articles as a result of the vote, see Dovyalis affra for example. I am really concerned that this is jumping the gun, so I think we need further discussion to see if there is consensus for changing the names at this time. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:53, 21 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Am I understanding this correctly? The record has been changed as if the name never existed. There is no record of the name to be used as a synonym. — Jts1882 | talk06:21, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
IPNI has been removing orthographic variants from its database for quite a while. The rule change says the the c-forms are to be treated as orthographic variants. IPNI often gives the original spelling as a nomenclatural note when the spelling has been corrected. They do this for at least Erythrina afra, so to that degree there is a record of the other version. Lavateraguy (talk) 07:08, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Now all of the IPNI records have been changed. There is no way to search IPNI for other spellings recorded in nomenclatural notes. I don't think that is very helpful. I'm curious how POWO is going to handle this. Plantdrew (talk) 16:23, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know. It depends on what the databases linked on Wikidata do. If some of them end up maintaining records for the "c" spellings and creating new records for the c-less spellings, different Wikidata items will be needed for the different spellings. If other databases follow IPNI in changing the spelling without creating any new records, the Wikidata item should have the taxon name changed. Plantdrew (talk) 22:54, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
POWO and GRIN are now using the new spellings. POWO maintained their record IDs, but changed the spelling. GRIN has created new records for the new spellings. Plantdrew (talk) 15:41, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Progress report on missing genera from PoWO, July 2024
Thanks for maintaining the list. Am I correct in assuming it does not account for Wikipedia articles that share a name with a plant genus, but are about a different topic? Plantdrew (talk) 16:59, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I have a list of the redirects (about 235) and disambigs (about 753, there are 8 that are both redirs and disams), and I have checked them in the past for errors. I will be checking again with the latest info. What I have never done is checked for mistaken redirects in the bluelinks, because there are 14,081 genera accepted by PoWO, and therefore 13,736 bluelinks. Abductive (reasoning)18:56, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't even thinking about "mistaken redirects in the bluelinks" although now that you mention it, that's another class of missing genera from POWO. "Mistaken redirects in the bluelinks" would be genera that are accepted by POWO, but which Wikipedia treats as a synonyms with a redirect (until it was turned into an article yesterday Senega would be one of those (at least I presume it has been accepted on POWO for some time period of time longer than the last ~36 hours)).
If you're just using link color to check for the existence of genus articles, one of the methods at Wikipedia:Visualizing redirects could help detect "mistaken redirects in the bluelinks".
What I was thinking about is cases like Ambassa, an Indian town that shares a name with the Asteraceae genus Ambassa (plant) that POWO accepts. I suppose it would possible to do some checking of cases like that via Wikidata, but that's not something I know how to do. Plantdrew (talk) 19:59, 25 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are some; I just checked all genera starting with "V" that are accepted by PoWO, 160, and found one, Vandellia, a genus of catfish known for swimming up people's urethras. I posted it to WP:PAR. Abductive (reasoning)04:49, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for maintaining this list. I am finding it best to update or create articles on genera by focusing on one family at a time. I first use POWO to update the list of genera in the family article, or on the separate list of genera that have been created for the larger families. I then check all the links – some of the bluelinks turn out to be disambiguation links, or redirects to a genus previously considered a synonym, or to an unrelated article with the same name. Those should get sorted out, including checking 'what links here' to make sure that links are going to the right articles, and/or searching for the genus name across Wikipedia and creating or updating appropriate links. Once I update the genus article I also move the articles on renamed species to their currently accepted names, and search for synonym names across Wikipedia to create appropriate links. It can be useful to list recently-renamed species with Wikipedia articles as 'formerly placed here' in the article for the former genus in case people look for the species there. Existing articles on genera should also be checked against POWO to make sure that the synonyms and lists of species are up to date. I now doubt I'll catch up with the naming of new genera, but can do my best to make sure that the articles and lists that are already here are up-to-date, accurate, referenced, and categorized. Tom Radulovich (talk) 16:04, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Clarify guidance on exclusion of year from taxobox authority?
Hi all, I just had a discussion with someone last night regarding the inclusion/exclusion of the year of publication of a name from its author citation and wanted to bring it up here. WP:TOL notes on its taxon template page that it is standard to exclude the year of publication as a part of the author citation for plant articles, however, this guidance is not included in the text of this project's taxon template, and has created confusion with at least one user that I know of regarding whether to include the year in the authority field of the taxo/speciesbox of plant articles. Could we update the taxon template to clarify this? Cheers, Ethmostigmus 🌿 (talk | contribs) 03:04, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ethmostigmus Clarification: Do you mean the authority field in the species or taxobox for plants? Because I think the reason that is not in the PLANTS taxon template is that is not settled by the Plants project. There is a bit of a diversity of opinion among regular plant editors regarding if it should or should not be included in the taxobox. Traditionally in botany the year is left off unlike in zoology, but the contrary view is that including the year in the taxobox gives more information to readers of Wikipedia and it is a taxobox not a formal botanical name. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 04:08, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that's what I meant, apologies for being unclear! The year is excluded in the example plant speciesbox in both the taxon template here and at WP:TOL, but only TOL explains this choice in the text. I would love to see everyone come to consensus on this, but even if this is not a settled matter, I do think it would be worth noting that fact in the text of this project's taxonomy template - "It is standard for botanical citations to exclude the year, however, consensus has not been reached and editors may use discretion when choosing to include/exclude the year of publication from the speciesbox authority field"? Ethmostigmus 🌿 (talk | contribs) 04:26, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here is the context for the name. If I recall correctly ICNafp has text on the handling of infraspecifics introduced by the old style notation of Greek letters. Lavateraguy (talk) 23:23, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At taxonomic rank: "In a publication prior to 1 January 1890, if only one infraspecific rank is used, it is considered to be that of variety. (Article 37.4) This commonly applies to publications that labelled infraspecific taxa with Greek letters, α, β, γ, ...". Referring to the code, that does not seem to be an accurate paraphrase of the article. Also, the name in question here postdates the 1890 cutoff. I find the application of the code here unclear, but perhaps it would be Malus paradisiaca [unranked] dasyphylla. Lavateraguy (talk) 15:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the information. I still have no idea how I'll treat it in my list of apple synonyms. It may or may not be notable enough for its own article depending on if I can find enough reliable information about the history of scientific names for the cultivated apple. And it is way too long/big to shove into the apple article even as a collapsed list. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 01:46, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think I concur with Lavateraguy on Malus paradisiaca [unranked] dasyphylla. The protologue in question is here; It is a typical nineteenth-century publication which uses Greek letters for labelling intraspecifics without further elaboration. They cannot just be assumed to be varieties since the publication postdates 1890. It is a "name at new rank" whose basionym is M. dasyphylla, so it didn't need a new diagnosis or description. For what it's worth, GBIF seems to treat it as a subspecies. Felix QW (talk) 08:21, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
At POWO dasyphylla occurs several times in the synonymy of Malus domestica, as a species (the basionym) or as a subspecies, variety, or proles, of several species, including sylvestris, domestica and pumila. Lavateraguy (talk) 09:21, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Greek letters in this book are varieties, see p. 6 (where used first)
No not really, im pretty sure there was a page that lists diffrent discussions on articles that you can contribute on, and all of them are plant-related articles. BloxyColaSweet (talk) 04:40, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I wonder if anyone can advise me, please. I'm still rather new to Wikipedia, and I've been working on a new page for Aster incisus in my sandbox. Since beginning it I have realized that a stub article already exists under the alternative name Kalimeris incisa. I understand that the name is disputed, but haven't been able to find out for certain which name is preferred. Any advice would be very much appreciated. ArthurTheGardener (talk) 20:48, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a mess. POWO accepts Aster incisus, as does the Flora of China website. WFO and the Global Compositae Database accept Kalimeris incisa (although the GCD record is flagged as unreviewed). Tropicos has Aster incisus accepted by "Flora of China Editorial Committee. 2011.", and Kalimeris incisa accepted by " Flora of China Editorial Committee. 1988-2013. Flora of China (Checklist & Addendum)." Given that Tropicos seems to be suggesting a change in the Flora of China treatment since it was physically published, I'd be inclined to go with Kalimeris incisa. Plantdrew (talk) 21:29, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
POWO has it in Aster; RHS has it in Kalimeris.
The old Aster got chopped into many pieces (the North American species ended up in Symphyotrichium and several other genera, and several European species ended up in Galatella, Crinitaria and Tripolium. I wondered if this pair of names was part of the same process, but on looking at Google Scholar this seems not to be the case. Instead several small East Asian genera, including Kalimaris, have been sunk into Aster - see this paper. For a fuller picture look at the references therein, and any citations made to it. Subject to further study, it seems appropriate to move Kalimeris incisa to Aster incisus, whereupon you can merge your material into it.
Thank you, @Lavateraguy and @Plantdrew: I really appreciate your thoughts. I'm happy to go with the majority opinion (if there is one). Should I simply add the material on my draft page to expand Kalimeris incisa, and wait for a consensus on the name, do you think? ArthurTheGardener (talk) 08:29, 28 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think that at one time there may have been a fairly good page about Heterophylly, but recent history shows converting a redirect to something else. It is now an inappropriate redirect to Heterophily. Can someone who knows how to look at ancient page history work out what has happened there? Heterophyllous is showing as a red link in a few places such as on Pinguicula. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 00:55, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to redirect to the Glossary of botanical terms and start working on an article for heterophyllous in the draft space if I do not see objections. Edit to add: Also, clearly I should try making a list of every possible botanical term and watching all those redirects for well intention people who do not know about plants editing them. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 01:51, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is much better, thanks! So there's no way to recover whatever was there ... I think there might have been this image One of each pair of leaves at a node is tiny. to show the extreme size dimorphism in the two leaves at a node in some Columnea species. That's not the easiest image to interpret, but unfortunately we don't have any pictures of Columnea hookeriana. (There are other types of heterophylly of course.) Sminthopsis84 (talk) 02:40, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea if it is recoverable or not. I just did a search for heterophylly and found the redirects for discussion that I linked. If there was an earlier discussion for heterophyllous I did not find it, but my searching could be weak. I just tried searching for both terms on all the templates, template talk, and wikipedia talk with the assumption that a deletion discussion would show up. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 03:13, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've bodged up a first edit of a draft at Draft:Heterophyllous. I'm self taught and relying on books I've found on archive.org, so I would appreciate other editors working on it. Or even just pointing me at sources and saying, "Look there." For a basic explanation I think The Growth of Leaves has not lead me too far wrong on the difference between heteroblastic and heterophyllous. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 03:34, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah yes, I'm sure you are right, I have misremembered. That image is used at Anisophylly. There's a bit of variation in usage, but I'd be happy with a distinction being kept here between the two, rather than cramming that meaning into heterophylly. Perhaps the simplest solution is to restrict heterophylly to the aquatic plants and have a largish "see also" section on each page. However, we have seasonal heterophylly (and Lammas growth separate). It's a bit of a tangle. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 23:55, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
1) I think that the article should be at the noun (heterophylly) rather than the adjective (heterophyllous).
2) I think that the distinction between heterophylly and heteroblasty is as honoured in the breach as in the observance, but confirming that probably requires original research. Lavateraguy (talk) 08:04, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the good suggestions. I will keep looking and see if I can find any sources that discuss how heterophylly and heteroblasty are actually used in literature as opposed to how they are defined in theory. 🌿MtBotany (talk) 15:13, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]