Talk:Falafel

Inappropriate paragraph

This paragraph in the introduction is inappropriate and should be removed: The Palestinian chickpea-only version of the falafel has also been adopted into Israeli cuisine, where it now features prominently and is proclaimed as the country's national dish – a situation which has been lamented by Palestinians, Lebanese, and other Arab groups alike as amounting to cultural appropriation. 82.19.192.8 (talk) 17:40, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Why do you object to it? It is well sourced and I believe factually correct. Do you deny that there is debate about the cultural appropriation of Arab foods by Israelis? The phrasing is I think WP:NPOV, not taking sides on the issue. --Macrakis (talk) 17:55, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Citation needed that Israel appropriated food. Israel is a middle eastern culture just like the others. 64.121.35.108 (talk) 13:00, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi Macrakis, I think there is debate because there are Jews from several Arab lands who have settled in Israel therefore, not true cultural appropriation. Either more sources or different wording is needed. Chavmen (talk) 03:58, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Here are some constructive suggestions and comment:

The Palestinian chickpea-only version of the falafel has also been adopted into Israeli cuisine, where it now features prominently and is proclaimed as the country's national dish. MISLEADING AND NOT NECESSARY FOR LEDE. DOESN'T READ AS NEUTRAL.

History:

The dish later migrated northwards to the Levant, where chickpeas replaced the fava beans, and from there spread to other parts of the Middle East. THERE WERE JEWS THROUGHOUT THE MIDDLE EAST INCLUDING A SMALL POPULATION IN PALESTINE. THEREFORE STATING THE FOLLOWING:

The identification of Falafel with Israeli cuisine has been lamented by Palestinians, Lebanese and other Arab populations as amounting to cultural appropriation.

SEEMS CONTRADICTORY.

ALSO, RAVIV IS THE ONLY SCHOLARLY SOURCE CITING CULTURAL APPROPRIATION ALONG WITH OTHER ARAB ORGANISATIONS.

CONSIDERING...it was consumed by Syrian and Egyptian Jews AND was adopted in the diet of early Jewish immigrants to the Jewish communities of Ottoman Syria. WOULD BE APPROPRIATE TO STATE JEWS AND ARABS CONSUMED/MADE FALAFEL AT VARIOUS POINTS THROUGHOUT HISTORY IN LEDE.

Thoughts? Chavmen (talk) 09:20, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

The main note that I have on the above is: read WP:SHOUT. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:06, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Of course Arab Jews (as well as Arab Christians etc.) in Egypt and the Levant ate falafel, but it was not regarded as a distinctively Jewish dish until recently. Treating falafel as a "national food" makes a claim about its distinctiveness.

Not sure what your point about the "lamenting" part is. This is an WP:NPOV statement, not claiming in WP's voice that it is cultural appropriation, just reporting on what others say. Do you disagree that others say this?

Not sure what you mean by Raviv "and other Arab organizations". Raviv is an Israeli-American scholar who has researched this issue and published it as a book and as far as I know has nothing to do with Arab organizations. --Macrakis (talk) 11:20, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi Macrakis, I'll try to be more specific.

1. If the lede is a summary, then it would make more sense, judging by the article and each section to say something like this:

Falafel is a popular dish with a disputed origin, likely originating in Egypt and later spreading to the Middle East. The name is derived from the Arabic word for pepper. The dish involves fritters made from fava beans or chickpeas, often shaped into balls or patties and deep-fried or oven-baked. Preparation methods vary, with fava beans used in Egyptian cuisine and chickpeas in Palestinian cuisine. Falafel gained popularity across the Levant and the wider Middle East, often served during Ramadan. In Israel, the Palestinian chickpea falafel is considered a national dish, adopted by early Jewish immigrants. Falafel has gained global popularity as a vegetarian food in Europe, particularly Germany, and North America.

This just seems to me to fit more with WP:NPOV and for summation purposes.

2. In terms of Raviv, I understand he studied it significantly, but I think it would be more specific (according to him also) that it wasn't a Jewish Ashkenazi dish yet Syrian and Egyptian Jews did prepare and eat this dish. Specifically here: Falafel was never a specifically Jewish dish, but it was consumed by Syrian and Egyptian Jews. Makes more sense. Also, one person is not enough experts on the topic, hence why I then brought this up:

3. In terms of my Arab Organisations comment, I was referring to this sentence:...has been lamented by Palestinians, Lebanese and other Arab populations as amounting to cultural appropriation. I didn't mean to get this sentence confused with Raviv - they were too separate points.

To someone reading the article who doesn't look at sources, I would want to see both sides of the spectrum.

But I will get out of here now and leave it to some ECs to figure out :) Chavmen (talk) 11:27, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

"Until recently" meaning almost all Middle East Countries were created by Europe recently? Alexfrombonn (talk) 22:20, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, will put in italics next time. Just wanted to create the distinction. Chavmen (talk) 10:58, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

@Iskandar323 :) Chavmen (talk) 11:30, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Raviv writes in citation [1] “The Jewish population in Palestine, the early halutzim, or pioneers - adopted the local Arab version made with childpeas. By the 1920’s falafel had become a popular snack with the younger generation." That does not directly correspond to the citation, which implies it is a Palestinian dish, with Palestinian referencing the modern usage of the term. In the 1920's the "Palestinians" were the people who lived in Palestine, including Jews, and Raviv is directly referencing the Jews in her paper. The citation should be removed, or it should be clarified that by "Palestinian, Raviv was referring to the Halutzim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Psycholing (talk • contribs) 22:28, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

You are denying the whole history and culture of the Mizrahi Jewry.

That paragraph is discriminatory, zero neutral and against the idea of wikipedia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews Alexfrombonn (talk) 22:17, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Neutrality Tag

Can’t believe its come to this, but with serious battleground behaviors being exhibited on this page, I’m placing a neutrality tag on the page until actual balanced consensus can be achieved on the political implications of falafel.

There are clear biases that are being railroaded into the edit. The largest Jewish ethnic subgroup in Israel are Jews from Muslim and Arab countries, yet accusations of cultural appropriation from both Palestinians and “other arab populations” are being given emphasis in the lede without any grounds for counterpoint? Not remotely neutral. Mistamystery (talk) 20:44, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Please provide something other than personal opinion to justify the tag. Please explain why what several reliable sources discuss should not be included. Please explain why when WP:LEAD says we should include noteworthy controversies about a topic in the lead you think we should remove them. And please do so with sources. nableezy - 21:00, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Because the representation of the controversy is one-sided, and excludes counter information now only available in the body that then flatly mischaracterizes the nature of the controversy. I’m putting the tag back on. Mistamystery (talk) 23:13, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

I've been doing some work on the article, do you still feel it is POV, Mistamystery? Falafel most likely originated in Egypt but the time is unknown; some say ancient, some say modern. It predates the modern states Israel or Palestine, or many of the nations on the present Middle Eastern map. Egyptians, Yemenites and others from the Arab world brought it to Israel. Other civilizations have a falafel inherited via the Egyptians: the Persians and the Greeks, who aren't Arab, but also had contact and their own spin on falafel. Andre🚐 00:14, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

This neutrality tag was not helpful and I have removed it. See Special:Diff/1191574503—Alalch E. 10:23, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree the tag is not helpful. I believe Mistamystery was saying that the lead doesn't need to include the accusation of cultural appropriation. I think I agree. Can we remove that from the lead? It would of course remain in the body. Is this really one of the most notable aspects of Falafel? Can't we all share this food that everyone inherited probably from ancient Egyptians, who were neither Arab Palestinians nor Jewish Israelis? Andre🚐 10:25, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

I want to be very clear: the lede is not neutral and does not present a balanced view of the "controversy" (which I also do not think is sufficient to be included in the lede at all). This is why the neutrality tag needs to be restored and the above comments do not counter why I put it there in the first place. I merely

left the convo for a few days and someone took the silence as grounds to remove it without actually addressing the clear issue.

The point-counterpoint is not "Israelis consider it to be a national dish but Palestinians/Arabs consider that to be cultural appropriation" is not remotely balanced. The "Israelis" being referenced includes Jews from Arab countries (including Egypt, where falafel originates from), so it is non-sensical to place a claim of Arabs making accusation of cultural appropriation without counter-mention of the Arab Jewish influence on Israeli cuisine and dietary attitudes.

Until this specifically is resolved (plus resurgent coatrack concerns all over the page that are an attempt to turn it into a PIA conflict battleground), then no, I do not consider this page to have resolved its neutrality issues. I will be (again) restoring the neutrality tag shortly until this is resolved, and will be happy to pull in an admin for feedback. Mistamystery (talk) 21:02, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

The controversy isn't about shared cuisine: it is about appropriation and lack of attribution of the origins of certain dishes. If a dish is thought to have originated in Egypt, it can reasonably be construed as "Egyptian"; but if an Egyptian moves to country X, taking that dish with them, it is not necessarily reasonable to then construe that dish as "country X-ish" in turn. Iskandar323 (talk) 23:56, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

I recently had to remove a quote that someone had added into this article which referred to those who supposedly were “appropriating” the cuisine as “criminals and misfits from American jewish ghettoes”, which I think both illuminates the core issue here (insofar as a distinct and venomous pseudo-legitimized bias finding its way both into sources and discourse on the subject) as well as a clear (and questionable) agenda certain editors are attempting to push here that - in spite of people’s appreciable frustration with all things Israel and Israelis - just simply does not add up.

There is no dispute as to the genesis of falafel becoming an Israeli national dish. It was already widely consumed across the Arab world (including by Jews living both inside of pre-1900 Palestine, as well as across the middle east). When Jewish migration started to rise in the 19th century, cuisines were carried along from one location to another, new ones were adopted and adapted and modified and collided into the eclectic mix of influences that defines Israeli cuisine today. As a new community, and later national cuisine started to formulate itself, falafel (alongside many other popularly consumed dishes with influences from far and wide) came to be considered a staple dish.

The lede does not currently say “Palestinians”, it says “Palestinians and Arabs” criticize this cultural appropriation, which in effect creates set up a lose-lose nexus that is profoundly unacademic, and nefariously so in its insistence that it somehow is a legitimate argument worthwhile of an article lede. A Jewish Israeli who ate chickpea-based falafel in Yemen and continued to do so in Israel is now an “appropriator” in Israel, when he wasn’t one in Yemen?

This argument attempts to say “Israeli cuisine” is at fault, but clearly - given that it attempts to make no account for both the majority of Jewish Israelis who migrated from the Middle East and have often historically included falafel in their diet, or the 20% of Israelis who are Arabs - it is nothing but a byword for the toxic, highly politicized distortive bias that “Israeli” only means “European Ashkenazi Jew”…which we all know it very much doesn’t, and just mathematically is not the case.

None of the sources on the page imply there is any dispute as to the trajectory of falafel dishes. Nor do any of the sources indicate any Israelis are claiming they invented falafel. Nor are there any sources claiming that the concept of falafel as a “national dish” preceded its popularity. It was a popular, cheap street food that grew in popularity alongside many other dishes that were influenced by the collision of subcultures happening at the time in the region.

For it to be cultural appropriation the accusation would have to be applied evenly to all potential appropriators, and that just isn’t the case here. There is a bottlenecked and distorted fixation on one particular group, and we all well know what that is, and is sure as shootin’ isn’t academic or remotely NPOV.

This theory is frankly very much WP:FRINGE and is nothing but a convenient coatrack for people’s general grievances around the conflict. It doesn’t mean we indulge it here.

Someone just make a “food disputes” page or a “cultural appropriation in food” page and let us be done of this in this location. It’s super inappropriate. Mistamystery (talk) 02:01, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Claims of cultural appropriation are subjective and have been attributed as such. It sounds like you disagree with the claims - that's fine as many cases of cultural appropriation and the concept itself is controversial. VR _talk 18:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

I am pointing out an inaccuracy. The page states "The Association of Lebanese Industrialists in 2008 brought a lawsuit against Israel seeking damages for lost revenues, claiming copyright infringement regarding the branding of Israeli falafel, hummus, tabbouleh, and other foods.[25][26][61]" when in fact there is no evidence that such a law suit was ever brought forward. The citations simply refer to a quote about a plan to bring forward a lawsuit about copyright violations. I could find no reference to an actual lawsuit or a resolution or settlement to a lawsuit over copyright violation. This entire portion should be removed as inaccurate, or should be altered to say that such a lawsuit was considered but not brought forward. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Psycholing (talk • contribs) 21:40, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

DENIAL.OF THE HISTORY OF JEWS OF ORIENTAL AND SPANISH ORIGIN.

The paragraph about cultural apropiation is clearly discrminating the descendents of the thousands of Jewish of non European origins that lived in Northen Africa,,Egypt, and the whole Middle East, their own history and the history of their families. The article is not neutral and heavily biased, ruining the whole idea of Wikipedia for political issues. This is not the standard of a neutral and unbiased colective construction of knowledge. Alexfrombonn (talk) 22:11, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

@Alexfrombonn, would you like to make a suggestion? Valereee (talk) 14:56, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Lede

@TrulyShruti: [1] Please note that the inclusion of this material to the lede is based on the WP:LEDE guideline which states that the lede is a summary of the body including any prominent controversies of which this is clearly one. This has already been discussed. [2] Makeandtoss (talk) 14:31, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Restored to lead. nableezy - 15:50, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

It is not prominent in the world mainstream discussion of falafel. This has long failed to gain consensus for the lead, and it should not appear there until consensus is explicit. SPECIFICO talk 16:02, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

There has been a consensus, you not liking that consensus but failing to achieve one to overturn it is a personal problem. nableezy - 16:53, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Please give a link that demonstrates explicit consensus for this lead text. It's repeatedly been challenged by various editors. SPECIFICO talk 19:24, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

You were there the last time this was discussed. The sources, and the majority of editors, are on one side. You are on the other. Being challenged by various editors who either ignore or misrepresent the sourcing does not change that consensus. If you would like to try to establish a new one feel free. nableezy - 19:33, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Nableezy, the link you provided demonstrates a failed attempt to elevate the grievance. No consensus was achieved there. Also, please try not to personalize talk page content discussions. SPECIFICO talk 16:24, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I haven’t. And nope, it shows a majority of users and all the sources supporting this and a few users demanding we not follow WP:LEAD which requires the inclusion of noteworthy controversies. nableezy - 16:34, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I removed the content too. Consensus can change, of course. This is an unnecessary politicization of a cuisine-related article that doesn't belong in the lead section, where readers expect a straightforward introduction to the dish, instead of political wars over food. Controversies should remain where they belong, in the controversy section. PeleYoetz (talk) 09:00, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Its inappropriate and presents a false view to have the inventors and native eaters of a dish in the same position as someone who adopted it. The history and background must be presented when there is text about the country that adopted it. Including the lede. ---Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:36, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

That’s absurd, this is stable content for a decade and the lead summarizes the article, including the controversy section. nableezy - 10:56, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, no arguments based in WP policy have been made against its inclusion as well. Makeandtoss (talk) 18:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

All the "arguments" against are based on policy WP:NPOV. Consensus can change, and in the case of this page it has changed due to the many new editors who previously did little editing relating to the mideast and now find themselves browsing this and other related pages. So "absurd" and other non-policy-based reasoning is not going to help. SPECIFICO talk 20:58, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Funny, since NPOV requires the inclusion of all significant views and a bunch of highly reliable sources have been provided to show this to be one. And lead requires in the inclusion of noteworthy controversies and again a bunch of highly reliable sources have shown this to be one. The effort to ignore the sources and the policies should be ignored. nableezy - 00:54, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Kahn Bar-Adon's lament

We've got Dafna Hirsch of the Open University of Israel, wrote: "Despite [Dorothy] Kahn Bar-Adon's lament, but we make no mention of what that lament was (or why it matters what Bar-Adon thought, although I did hunt her down). Does anyone have access to Hirsch's piece? It's here. Valereee (talk) 13:43, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Ping Carlstak, who added the content. Valereee (talk) 14:43, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

References

I discussed this in this edit in response to the "‎COATRACK and UNDUE?" discussion in replying to a comment by SPECIFICO, as you can see: "Have to disagree, it has everything to do with falafel because of the cultural symbolism, whether developed organically or synthetically, inherent in almost every aspect. The food itself has been politicized in Israel, so that should be addressed in the article, as well as the fact that even some Jewish Israelis, such as Dafna Hirsch, an authority on Israeli food culture and food history, calls its cultural appropriation from Palestinians just that. Her writing is not a complaint from Palestinians, it's a description of reality from an Israeli Jew." I have access to the article, and I'm looking at it now, but I'm busy working; just saw this on my lunch break. If this issue is being relitigated ad infinitum, I'm out. 18:24, 10 August 2024 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carlstak (talk • contribs)

Carlstak, I'm only asking if you still have access to this source, as I don't, so we can know what the "lament" was. Valereee (talk) 19:09, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Here's the relevant paragraph:

Palmach members apart, prior to the second half of the 1940s, hummus was largely unknown to most Jews in Palestine. In a piece titled “Oriental Gourmet: Lamb, Tehina, Humas,” journalist Dorothy Khan Bar-Adon lamented that “since the outbreak of war domestic science institutions have been advocating the use of local products, popular with the Orientals, and cheap, nourishing and tasty. But probably only the sheerest necessity will make a dent in the wall of resistance. Food habits cling. There are many Eastern Europeans who have never learned to eat olives!” (1941).

I am subscribed to this section, so you needn't ping me. Carlstak (talk) 00:59, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! Valereee (talk) 11:22, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Palestinian version

@SPECIFICO: [3] Clearly, it is not exclusively Palestinian; but it is indeed the context from which Israel had appropriated this version from. Why did you remove it? Makeandtoss (talk) 18:35, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

We can't make up a fakefact, clearly not a fact if I read your post right, to fit an interpretation about "appropriated" etc.

Maybe the first falafel was shared with pride, love, and respect by an Arab Israeli citizen at a neighborhood gathering.

I don't see appropriation at our meatball noodle or fried chicken, or tomato article pages. I've previously addressed the potato. I think it's a reasonable suggestion, as others have noted, to create a Appropiations of Falafel page, which could discuss its popularity around the world and the expressions of grievance and reactions to such feelings, worldwide.

A more obvious example of culinary influence on Jewish culture would be the Ashkenazi Jews' Matzo Ball to mimic indiginous Eastern European dumplings.

Of all the tragedies of the mideast region over the past 100 years, this is pretty far down on the list in the global mainstream view. The exaggerated grievance and elevation of the falafel as a symbol of the more essential and enduring issues has nothing to do with falafel, as @Valereee: has articulated. The weaponization of falafel trivializes the underlying issues. SPECIFICO talk 20:49, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

What matters is the source, not your unsourced ramblings about irrelevant things like meatballs. What Raviv 2003 says is Falafel is generally made from fava beans (as in Egypt, where it is also known as Ta’amia), from chickpeas (the ver-sion traditional to Palestine and encountered in Israel today), or from a combination of the two. Palestinian should be restored and this effort to disregard the sources ignored. nableezy - 00:48, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

This seems to be a case in which personal opinions are being used to justify ignoring RS: "The falafel that Zionist settlers eventually came to claim as their national food was made by Palestinians first. It belongs to a family of fritters made with fava beans, or chickpeas in the Palestinian version, that had long been shared throughout the Arab Eastern Mediterranean, from Alexandria and Port Said in Egypt to Beirut in Lebanon." [4]

On a side note, this would be relevant: "Kassis focuses the book on food and kin; in an opinion piece she wrote in February for the Washington Post, she gave voice to the objections raised by many Palestinians over the notion of “Israeli cuisine.” “By and large, the dishes that make up the Israeli ‘national food’ repertoire (hummus, falafel, msabaha, baba ghanoush, knafeh) were learned from the Palestinian population,” she wrote. “In many restaurants and cookbooks, Israelis have no problem including such items as ‘Yemeni schug,’ ‘Iraqi sabich’ or ‘Tunisian salad.’ But the absence of the word ‘Palestinian’ from their menus and books is a glaring omission. As many Israeli academics and food writers themselves have pointed out, the word ‘Palestinian’ is still considered by many Israelis as a threat to their existence.”" [5] Makeandtoss (talk) 09:40, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

the word ‘Palestinian’ is still considered by many Israelis as a threat to their existence Kentucky Fried Chicken did not originate in Kentucky! Shakespeare appropriated Tragedy from the Greeks without attribution - presaging the British imperialism that plagued humanity for centuries.

My personal opinion is that "cultural appropriation" has been not only one of the principal engines of human progress -- starting with the Christian and Muslim appropriation of Hebraic teaching -- but has also driven outcomes of eventual integration and respect among disparate cultures. Some folks may be too close to the issue to see it in perspective. So, I leave you to your falafel. Adieu. SPECIFICO talk 13:32, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the place for your personal opinions. I don’t want to know them and WP:NOTFORUM means I don’t need to be burdened with them. Kindly stop disrupting the purpose of this page, which is to discuss the article on Falafel, not our personal views on irrelevant topics. nableezy - 13:46, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Your personal opinion, while entirely irrelevant and as already pointed out strongly discouraged from being argued for here, is -whether in purpose or absence of knowledge- lacking the context of the settler colonial nature of Zionism against the indigenous Palestinian population. This is why we have RS, which contextualizes these disputes and gives a sound judgement on them, which we can then reflect on WP. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:35, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

To wrap this up: Somebody claimed without evidence that I post here from my personal opinion, so I corrected the record on that. Full stop. The problem is that falafel is not a crime, it's a foodstuff. The controversy has its own extensive discussion in a page initiated by our colleague Valereee. On this page it's WP:COATRACK that has baffled most uninvolved editors and readers. SPECIFICO talk 15:15, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Are you under the impression that having a dedicated article on a subtopic makes it less noteworthy? Huh. You know that coatracking is about including things not related to the subject, and what we include is things related to the subject, right? nableezy - 15:42, 11 August 2024 (UTC)